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Thread: Looks like breccia and chondritis?

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  1. #16

    Dec 2019
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I have no purpose to prove something to someone. I want to see people's opinions, informed opinions. To learn more about this topic. Please answer how my sample differs from this ....Click image for larger version. 

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    or from this ...Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1797202 http://cursovoy.narod.ru/collection.htm
    Last edited by lyusy777; Feb 02, 2020 at 09:05 AM.

  2. #17
    ua
    Feb 2020
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

  3. #18
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
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    Oh dear. There’s only so much help that can be given, but the Russian website ‘cursovoy.narod.ru’ with its collection of ‘meteorites’ is a joke. I could not stop laughing. The first section says:

    “First of all, since some "experts" doubt that these are meteorites (or they have it so accepted - show them the pallasite, they will say that it is slag), then I will first of all give such signs of meteorites, which in appearance (including the appearance of the polished surface) can be determined with a high probability (almost 100%) that this is a meteorite, and chemical analysis will only confirm this.”

    This person is an amateur, showing pictures of things which are NOT meteorites. He’s doing what you are doing. Making assumptions based on appearance without any evidence to support his claims. He also obviously has no first-hand experience of meteorites and is just relying on things he has read on the internet. The descriptions of petrology he is giving actually bear no resemblance to the features seen in his rocks.

    It’s difficult to translate everything from the website and I’m not sure if he is selling specimens as meteorites (but which are not meteorites at all). However, he appears to be running some kind of business. He talks about payment for his services and the difficulty of providing a price-list.

    You cannot rely on anything shown on that website (in my opinion).

    The mistake you are making is that you believe you can identify meteorites based on comparison to pictures you find on the internet. You can’t, unless you are really experienced, the pictures are of very high quality and are accompanied by some additional information about the context for the find and the properties of the specimen. The additional information also includes things such as ‘probability’. Even then the answer is not definitive without confirmatory analysis.

    The first picture you showed in post #16 is a genuine lunar meteorite. In fact its NWA 2727. It’s a breccia of basaltic and gabbroic lithologies, came from the Sahara and the total amount found was 191g. Lunar meteorites in general are rare (as well as usually small) and some of them are breccias, but they’re typically feldspathic breccias. NWA 2727 is an extremely rare lithology type and is a unique specimen (so far), although it has similarities to NWA 773 (663g), NWA 2700 (32g) and NWA 2977 (233g).

    Let’s take a look at your evidence:

    Looks like a brecciated chondrite
    You pointed out small spheres that you think might be chondrules. As already said, small spherical structures are common in things that aren’t meteorites. Chondrules of that size do NOT occur in lunar meteorites, which are essentially achondrites derived from the surface of the moon, after it became a differentiated body. A few lunar rocks from the Apollo missions have been found to contain moderate numbers of glassy spherules which are similar in structure to meteoritic chondrules, but they are tiny (typically less than 1 micrometer and certainly not visible to the naked eye).

    I have an eyewitness to the fall of the meteor in 2005.
    No, you don’t unless you actually saw it hit the ground. As already said, there are no reports from the meteorite community of a fall in the Ukraine or Russia during 2005.

    Now trying to find the wreckage.
    Assuming you saw a meteor streak in the sky, the chances that it hit the ground are extremely low. Most observations of streaks are high up in the atmosphere and from material which does not survive re-entry. Even if it does, it usually falls a long way from the observation of the streak. Tens of kilometres away. Even if you saw a streak and it hit the ground, you are likely looking in completely the wrong place

    These are two (total six) fragments found nearby. They were found approximately at a distance of a kilometer from my first find.
    As already said, a fall as fresh as 2005 would have a nice and obvious fusion crust. Your specimens don’t have that.

    There are many thousands of kilometers to the nearest volcano.
    No, there aren’t. the south and southwest of the Ukraine has volcanoes and your area in the northeast sits on the edge of a huge volcanic rift basin. Volcanic rocks will be found in your region and are a MUCH more likely possibility than meteorites. The appearances can be superficially similar. We also know little about industry in your area which might produce slag, clinker and other waste products or where it may have been dumped. Some of what you are showing does look like slag and since you said your finds were at least a kilometer apart, they may not all be the same type of material. You may have both volcanic rocks and industrial slag.

    Your pictures
    I have never seen anything resembling this kind of appearance in a meteorite and certainly not a lunar meteorite. If those blobs are metallic iron, it would be exceptionally unusual in terrestrial material too, except for things like man-made slag.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Native metallic iron is a pretty rare find in terrestrial rocks that have formed naturally. Most of earth’s iron is locked up as oxides, sulphides, silicates and carbonates etc which do not have a metallic appearance (apart from some sulphides where the appearance is crystalline, not rounded blobs).

    There are some exceptions, which can be mistaken for meteorites but they’re only found in certain locations the very northern hemisphere. Below is a cut and polished section of material from Plato Putarano in Russia, from my own collection. You could easily mistake it for a mesosiderite meteorite, but it’s a fine-grained terrestrial basaltic breccia with streaks of native iron mixed with nickel.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The specimen is from the Noril'sk district of Siberia and is associated with a volcanic rift, similar to the one adjacent to your location.
    Charl, alan m, lyusy777 and 2 others like this.

  4. #19

    Dec 2019
    26
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Thanks so much for your extensive answer! On the advice of people from this forum, I decided to check the official meteorite fall closest to me. I want to know how you will comment on my find. (Sorry for my English)Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by lyusy777; Feb 11, 2020 at 07:37 PM.

  5. #20
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    501
    1335 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I’m now confused. You originally said that you witnessed a meteorite fall and presumably you know the actual date. If you did, why do you now need to “check the official meteorite fall closest to me”? Are you now accepting that what you saw in the sky and what you found on the ground are not related to one another but hoping to find some proof that a meteorite might have fallen there at some other time?

    What you are now showing is a rock. It’s magnetic but that’s not particularly unusual for terrestrial rocks. It seems to have no geological resemblance to the rocks you were originally showing, which you thought related to the fall you believe you witnessed. For this latest rock, the exterior shows absolutely no features which would be characteristic of a meteorite of any class. Rough surface appearance, zero fusion crust.

    The interior shows no particular features specific to meteorites. Yes, it’s possible for some meteorites to have that kind of internal appearance but many terrestrial rocks will look exactly like that too. There is nothing visible which specifically says ‘meteorite’ and, when you also consider the external appearance, it’s obviously not a meteorite.

    It seems to me that you are just randomly picking up interesting-looking rocks and then trying to convince yourself that you have found meteorites by linking your finds to unreliable and inappropriate evidence you have found on the internet.


    I’m sure I’ve found a fire engine. I found this picture on the internet and mine looks just like it. Bright red and shiny, with the wheels and everything. There’s a fire station somewhere around here and I’m pretty sure I heard a siren a while ago.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Mine doesn’t have the ladder, but I’m still sure it’s fire engine related, based on the other clues. It’s probably one of the rarer types of fire control vehicles which doesn’t have a ladder. Here’s a picture of one I found on the internet. Mine looks just like it.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I’ve done a bit more research and found out the nearby fire station is just an administration building which doesn’t have any fire engines, but I’m still sure it’s a vehicle of some kind. I found this picture on the internet and it looks a lot like mine. Apart from mine doesn’t have a seat.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I found another website where there are red vehicles without ladders where you can’t see the seats because they’re on the inside. I’m not far from London, so I’m now thinking it’s a London bus. Like this one I found on the internet.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Apparently, London buses don’t travel out as far as where I found mine. The buses here are green. This is my find. Any ideas on what kind of fire engine it is?
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Red-Coat; Feb 12, 2020 at 07:50 AM. Reason: clarity

  6. #21
    Charter Member
    us
    Jul 2011
    Gold canyon AZ
    1,279
    1945 times
    Cache Hunting
    Hilariously funny,
    Red-Coat and lyusy777 like this.
    time for another drink

  7. #22
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    501
    1335 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by alan m View Post
    Hilariously funny,
    Thanks. Not intended to make fun of @lyusy777... but more a way of trying to point out the illogical way many people try to convince themselves they have a meteorite. I exaggerated to make the point.

  8. #23

    Feb 2006
    1,464
    1536 times
    My four year old grandson got a Lightning McQueen tote just like that for his birthday. I guess he now has a fire engine.

    Yes, your “over the top” sarcasm makes an excellent point. Thank you.

    Time for more coffee.
    Red-Coat likes this.

  9. #24

    Dec 2019
    26
    26 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Can you answer how the lunar feldspar differs from the earth? (Anorthositis from our planet) Less coffee ... More walks and fresh air! Buy a metal detector!
    Last edited by lyusy777; Feb 16, 2020 at 02:23 PM.

  10. #25

    Dec 2019
    26
    26 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I personally have not seen a fall. I have a witness of the fall of a meteor, who even heard the "sound of the fall." And my first “slag” was inside the “volcanic breccia,” which I cleaned with a hammer.

  11. #26
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    501
    1335 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by lyusy777 View Post
    Can you answer how the lunar feldspar differs from the earth? (Anorthositis from our planet)
    Well, I could, but the differences are largely of a nature that only an experienced geologist with access to the right equipment and with the benefit of petrological analysis would recognise. It would take most of a page to explain them to you in a more friendly manner than you could find for yourself by Googling for scientific articles.

    In simple terms, someone with no such expertise wouldn’t be able to tell the difference, except for this:

    Lunar anorthosites are light in colour. If you find anorthosite (assuming you have the ability to recognise it) which is dark in colour it will be terrestrial. However, terrestrial anorthosites can also be light in colour, so it’s not a definitive distinction but does enable some anorthosites to be excluded from having a lunar origin.

    Terrestrial anorthosite cooled very slowly after its formation relative to lunar anorthosite. It therefore tends to have larger crystals… sometimes 25mm or more in length. Lunar Anorthosites will not have crystals of that size and are fine-grained with perhaps only a few crystals up to 10mm at most. Again it’s not definitive, as above, but enables some specimens to be ruled out as lunar.

    The slow cooling rate for terrestrial anorthosite can cause some of the plagioclase crystals to exhibit an iridescent appearance as a result of optical interference created by a lamellar structure. It’s called ‘labradorescence’ and you will not see it in lunar specimens. Again, not definitive, except to rule out some specimens as having a lunar origin.

    Without such knowledge, the only other criteria you can use are those which relate to meteorites in general… fusion crust and so on, plus the presence of accessory minerals which are not consistent with lunar origin. You won't find amphibole or garnet in lunar material for example, although they're often present in terrestrial anorthosite.
    Last edited by Red-Coat; Feb 16, 2020 at 08:28 PM. Reason: additional info - accessory minerals

  12. #27
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    501
    1335 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by lyusy777 View Post
    I personally have not seen a fall. I have a witness of the fall of a meteor, who even heard the "sound of the fall." And my first “slag” was inside the “volcanic breccia,” which I cleaned with a hammer.
    None of this is helping your case. Because you are being very imprecise about what you found and where, and are showing rocks found in different places which clearly are not geologically similar to one another and do not have the characteristic expected from meteorites, it's becoming impossible to make sensible comments.

    If a fall was witnessed all the way to ground impact then there will be a crater, unless it fell in water. if a fall was witnessed only in the sense of a streak in the sky then, as already said, those occur largely in the upper atmosphere and in the vast majority of cases, nothing reaches the ground. In the rare cases when something does reach the ground, since the streak represents something moving very fast, any debris can (and usually is) a very long way from where the streak is observed. Its highly unlikely that your witness heard the "sound of a fall" in the sense of hearing the impact. What is sometimes heard is a sonic boom arising from the meteor travelling through the atmosphere faster than the speed of sound. Fragile meteors known as 'aerolites' also commonly disintegrate from the shock of travelling through the atmosphere and that can also create a 'detonation' noise similar to a sharp bang explosion that may be followed by a longer rumbling noise.
    lyusy777 and alan m like this.

  13. #28

    Dec 2019
    26
    26 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Thanks so much for your answers! My witness to the fall saw a ball of fire burn in many colors, close enough. Then he heard a sound like a slap. He was very scared. And even with memories of this event, his hair stood on end on his hands.

  14. #29

    Dec 2019
    26
    26 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    The last stone does not apply to the samples shown above. This was discovered by chance when searching with a metal detector near a meteorite fall in 1787.

  15. #30
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
    501
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyusy777 View Post
    The last stone does not apply to the samples shown above. This was discovered by chance when searching with a metal detector near a meteorite fall in 1787.
    The Ukrainian fall of 1787 was named the ‘Kharkov’ meteorite. Dr A.R. Gorodnitskiy of Sumy provided this account:

    "The day was clear, silent, and warm…. At 3 in the afternoon… when I went of my house suddenly I heard an unusual muffled noise…like a drum without snapping and beating, even and continuous, right above my head…as it seemed to me. In three days I heard that on the adjoining fields of the Zhigaylovka Sloboda, a stone fell from the air…ten versts [a verst is approximately 1 kilometre] from the town of Bobrik….We looked at the stone with great curiosity: and both the internal and external parts of it were very memorable for me, so in several years if I could see the stone from which a piece was broken off, I would easily recognize it."

    Note that, although he describes what he heard as seemingly “right above my head”, the meteorite that was found three days later fell around 40 kilometres away. It was an L6 chondrite weighing 1500g. This one in fact:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Note that the L class of chondrite is a low metal group. Still usually magnetic, but more weakly so than the H class. Those in the L6 sub-class have a large percentage volume of visible chondrules (but with weak outlines) in a homogenous fine-grained matrix up to about 15% of the total. Note also the very prominent fusion crust for this fall and that it's oriented (on the ablation face only). Closer examination of the surface of Kharkov revealed the presence of numerous striated veins as shock features from impact. In short, nothing like the rock you found.
    lyusy777 and alan m like this.

 

 
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