Two generations of army finds at an encampment area

[azdave]

I got permission to poke around a spring/well here that I had a strong suspicion would have been a vital water source back in the early days, and that would mean it would have been of great interest to the army.
Today's finds (first two pics) are of the "I"(infantry) marked general service button with two 45-70 casings, both"F" (Frankford Arsenal), "C" (carbine) from 1885. The other is a 50-70 cartridge, unmarked head... and the other item (2 casings) is an unknown, unmarked cartridge shoved into a 50-70 unmarked casing. The unknown casing is to short for a 45-70, but the case head is identical... I'll have to break out the calipers and research it.
I've found many "sets" of cartridges like this... with one shoved into a bigger cartridge, and this one came apart pretty easily with nothing inside.
Someday, I hope to pick a "set" up and shake it, to find something more than dirt or air or a chunk of rope in it, lol. (I had to cut open two casings once, to see why it was heavier than it should have been-- it was rope inside... I posted with pics about it on this site).

INTERESTINGLY, (next two pics) are finds from a few weeks back, and just a short distance away across the little canyon. I found the "coat" and "cuff" general service buttons (both Scovill backmarked), and two unfired .44 round balls, and best of all..... an unfired Spencer 56-50, with JG (Joseph Goldmark) headstamp!

So what I make of this is that in the late 1860's, very early 70's...and on one side of the canyon... they encamped here for a while, based on the amount of garbage. The fact that they had .44 round ball for percussion pistols and had at least one Spencer on hand indicates that timeframe.

Then they must have encamped there again, but on the other side of the canyon sometime after 1885 based on the headstamps of the 45-70's..... but the 50 cal casings are a bit odd since they were only used from about 66-73 for the conversion rifles after the war, and then being replaced by the 45-70. so those would have been more in place at the other side with the Spencer and .44's.
Of course they could have been dropped anywhere at any time, carried, moved, whatever and nothing is absolute on how anything gets somewhere .... just an interesting observation for me to ponder.

 

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[Injunbro]

Dave, Were you in the Camp Date Creek area by any chance? .45-70, .52 Spencer, .44-40, .45 Colt rounds have all been found there as well as broken guns, swords, etc.. That short .45-70 cartridge is likely the lighter/shorter version used in the 1873 trapdoor carbine (sometimes called .45-50 since it held 50 grains of black powder instead of 70). Actually both rifle & carbine was chambered the same but shooting a full-power .45-70 in a lighter carbine will get your attention! (yeah, I was dumb enough to try it). I have a few rounds of both in my collection from a few battle sites.

 

[azdave]

No, I was way south of that in Pinal county. The "short" cartridge shoved into the 50-70 is not a 45-70, as it's about a quarter inch too short..... I'm pretty sure there is only one case length (2.105") for 45-70, as both the "R"rifle and "C"carbine load use the same case, and as you mentioned its only the powder charge that's different.

I've always wanted to check out the Date Creek area, as well as the old road from there to Prescott through Bell Canyon..... lots of history in that region. Bad thing is that a lot of that region around date creek is State Land Trust, good thing is that most water sources (springs, seeps, wells) in the remote areas are on private property..... just gotta talk to the rancher.

I've found lots of GSB's over the years out here, but that was only my 3rd "I" marked one..... I'm hoping to one day find a "C"calvary marked button.... that would make my day.
My collection of "drops" (unfired) rounds is really growing these days.... several 44 rimfires, several of the various Spencers, lots of 50-70 govt, a Benet primed 45 Colt..... but best of all was a 44 Colt for the 1860 conversion revolver and a 45 SCHOFIELD, Frankford Arsenal headstamp.
In previous posts here I've shown some of my gun parts finds as well as other interesting things like watch fobs and such..... takes lots of research and miles of hiking, but its all worth it!

 

[Injunbro]

I have some short .45-50 rounds in my collection that were found @ a 1870's battle site along w/ regular length .45-70's, they are about 1/8" shorter. If you're ever down this way I'll try to dig them out & show you. There was supposed to be a wrecked stage coach whacked by either Yavapais or Western Apaches in Bell Canyon. I always intended to research & go look for the site but never did. The Date Creek site is worth seeing, the foundations are still easily sorted as which building is which, etc.. 1/2 of the site is on public land, 1/2 on a private ranch, a barbed wire fence goes through the middle & though one of the buildings... The stage stop site @ the top of O'Neil Pass is interesting too & nearby. Also the Chinese tunnel @ the Congress Hotel, & the 1 from the boarding house to the RR, the 3 graveyards @ Congress (skin color determined which 1 you were buried in). I'm rambling, time to go to bed.