Explorer "Noise cancel" question

[SgtSki in MI]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Noise cancel's a nice tool and I use it when I am having noise, hence the name of the function. But I've also learned that if you have your sensitivity jacked way up under lots of soil conditions, then noise cancel's not going to help you a whole lot. A lot of folks run their sensitivity full-bore in auto when it's really not necessary. Like IP, I find it a VERY handy feature out hunting with buddies.

When I go to a detecting location, I run noise cancel and then I set my sensitivity to where the threshold tone just barely begins to break up as I swing. I also almost NEVER run my sensitivity in auto. I usually am running it in manual at about 12 to 18. about the only exception to that is if I have my Explorer at the beach, which is almost never (that's what my 1236-X2 is for!).

I'm sure IP wants to refute this post too, but my method works for me and I've made some pretty good finds at decent depth with soil conditions/trash saturation forcing me to run my sensitivity as low as 8-manual.

Also, I have to agree with IP on Andy's book. When I first started using an Explorer XS in 2002, I bought a copy of Andy's book, read it....and got ALL kinds of confused! A few trips down to Illinois/Missouri to hunt with the Explorer gurus at the time straightened me out. Andy's book is now used to level an end table in my den that has one leg shorter than the other.


HH,
SgtSki

 

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[Iron Patch]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Noise cancel's a nice tool and I use it when I am having noise, hence the name of the function. But I've also learned that if you have your sensitivity jacked way up under lots of soil conditions, then noise cancel's not going to help you a whole lot. A lot of folks run their sensitivity full-bore in auto when it's really not necessary. Like IP, I find it a VERY handy feature out hunting with buddies.

When I go to a detecting location, I run noise cancel and then I set my sensitivity to where the threshold tone just barely begins to break up as I swing. I also almost NEVER run my sensitivity in auto. I usually am running it in manual at about 12 to 18. about the only exception to that is if I have my Explorer at the beach, which is almost never (that's what my 1236-X2 is for!).

I'm sure IP wants to refute this post too, but my method works for me and I've made some pretty good finds at decent depth with soil conditions/trash saturation forcing me to run my sensitivity as low as 8-manual.

Also, I have to agree with IP on Andy's book. When I first started using an Explorer XS in 2002, I bought a copy of Andy's book, read it....and got ALL kinds of confused! A few trips down to Illinois/Missouri to hunt with the Explorer gurus at the time straightened me out. Andy's book is now used to level an end table in my den that has one leg shorter than the other.


HH,
SgtSki

I figured by your sens. setting you were digging in the City. I was on the Findmall forum when those guys were digging all the park silver. I'm sure they had their own way of doing things, but it certainly worked well.

 

[SgtSki in MI]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Noise cancel's a nice tool and I use it when I am having noise, hence the name of the function. But I've also learned that if you have your sensitivity jacked way up under lots of soil conditions, then noise cancel's not going to help you a whole lot. A lot of folks run their sensitivity full-bore in auto when it's really not necessary. Like IP, I find it a VERY handy feature out hunting with buddies.

When I go to a detecting location, I run noise cancel and then I set my sensitivity to where the threshold tone just barely begins to break up as I swing. I also almost NEVER run my sensitivity in auto. I usually am running it in manual at about 12 to 18. about the only exception to that is if I have my Explorer at the beach, which is almost never (that's what my 1236-X2 is for!).

I'm sure IP wants to refute this post too, but my method works for me and I've made some pretty good finds at decent depth with soil conditions/trash saturation forcing me to run my sensitivity as low as 8-manual.

Also, I have to agree with IP on Andy's book. When I first started using an Explorer XS in 2002, I bought a copy of Andy's book, read it....and got ALL kinds of confused! A few trips down to Illinois/Missouri to hunt with the Explorer gurus at the time straightened me out. Andy's book is now used to level an end table in my den that has one leg shorter than the other.


HH,
SgtSki

I figured by your sens. setting you were digging in the City. I was on the Findmall forum when those guys were digging all the park silver. I'm sure they had their own way of doing things, but it certainly worked well.

Actually, I do most of my diiging in small towns and schoolhouse sites where I live (W Michigan) the soil conditions are pretty varied around here so I just adjust as I go

 

[Born2Dtect]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

My thoughts. Noise cancelling, I always try to do it. Why, the noise test function checks for other frequencies that may interfere with your unit, then chooses the set that should work best for you in this situation. You can also manually set the noise channel. I have to do this sometimes when I am near someone else.

Ed Donovan

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

I'm usually in a farm field and performance has always seemed the same, and when there's interference you know it. I very much doubt it's affected enough to matter if you can't tell there's a problem. People who hunt city parks might be more likely to hit it at the start of a hunt, but that really won't matter because things are always changing. Basically just push it when you need it... simple!


PS.... I actually do use it a lot because of the cross talk with my diggin bud who also uses an explorer. But if it wasn't for that it would only be power lines and the odd electric fence or radio tower.

And I agree with Chris.
You'll absolutely know when you have to adjust it.
On my etrac I keep mine set at 3 or 4 at all times...If things start getting chattery I simply bump it up manually 1 or 2 or until the things quiet down.

 

[davebien]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

I, too, just got an Explorer SE and am in the learning circle, much more than a curve. Went out today to a school down the street to "learn" the SE. Was comparing it to my DFX. I'd locate with the DFX and then the SE. The sounds that the SE makes is something else, but I'm getting there. I found a couple of coins and an extremely small metal button, all over 6 inches down. Just a test in a small area. However I really did find out that the DFX does NOT like being anywhere near the SE !!!!

Slow but sure.

 

[mainer]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

I, too, just got an Explorer SE and am in the learning circle, much more than a curve. Went out today to a school down the street to "learn" the SE. Was comparing it to my DFX. I'd locate with the DFX and then the SE. The sounds that the SE makes is something else, but I'm getting there. I found a couple of coins and an extremely small metal button, all over 6 inches down. Just a test in a small area. However I really did find out that the DFX does NOT like being anywhere near the SE !!!!

Slow but sure.

I too came from a whites to a explorer. It does take some getting use too but I will tell ya once you do you will be glad you did. I had to use the xlt when my armcuff on my explorer broke, it was like an alien to me. Dont give up on your SE. There a great machine.

 

[Ky Ed]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Don't forget that if you look up you will see airplanes flying overhead which are constantly sending out radio frequencies to locate the next point of interest to them. Airports are very busy sending out info to them also all over America. Now if you live a few miles from power generating plants the electrical interference will affect your Minelab also. Security systems from schools and other businesses are constantly bombarding us also. There are so many variables that are quietly lurking out there that we are not aware of that affect the performance of our machines. I love the noise cancel feature. So ground interference is not the only problem. Sooo----- use your minelab with pride and take advantage of all the features--- even if you don't know the help it is doing for you. Enjoy your all of your detectors. Then when you dig that "good" target share it with all of us. I love this hobby and the great hunters on this website. Ky. Ed:

 

[Shambler]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

More logically to my mind the Noise Cancel would be to only eliminate those frequencies that have too much interference.

Awful lot of assumptions here. Can somone point me to the white paper or manual entry that says noise cancel is a frequency adjustment?

To me, if I wanted to create a circuit or software program that "canceled unwanted noise" I would graph it and clip the tips of the high points off. Honestly the frequency range is pretty tight even though the numbers "seem" far apart. I'm not sure just changing the frequencies would help.

 

[Born2Dtect]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Here is a link to Minelabs definitions http://www.minelab.com/usa/consumer/knowledge-base/minelab-technologies It will do to start. Now to noise cancelling. The 28 frequencies range from 1.5 to 100 KHz. The detector has 10 channels (sets of frequencies) in this range spaced evenly apart. During noise canceling the unit sends out the sets and monitors the feed back then chooses a channel (set of frequencies) that has the least interference. You can also manually change the the channel in the menu.

It is not hard to understand if you try.

Why 28 frequencies? The detector processes the best signal allowing the best frequency to respond to your target, what ever it may be. Why one frequency over another? Gold, silver, relics, etc. respond better to different frequencies.

Ed D.

 

[Shambler]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

It is not hard to understand if you try.

Boooooo!

So what if the only frequencies that aren't receiving interference are 3, 4, and 4.5 KHz? Would you now have an Explorer going 4' deep and only able to detect semi-trailers?

I think something else is happening during noise canceling, and I'm certain it's not hard to understand but you have to have the information since neither you nor I developed it. The FBS reality and the FBS marketing plan (including Sabisch) are a little different, which I'm sure you know since you've tried hard to understand Hint, the page you sent me is not from the technical department.

Gold, silver, and relics signal response aren't the reason for FBS. If you had said shallow, deep, small, and big, it would've made more sense. Gold detectors are high freq'd not entirely because of signal response - it's more to do with the size of the metal your looking for. I also don't believe for a second this machine emits 100Khz freqs (EVER!).

See if you can detect a thin gold chain or a BB with your Explorer - now try an F75. Is the F75 better? Nope - BUT it picked up the BB and chain. Is the Explorer emitting any frequency above 13Khz? If it is, why didn't it pick up the small chain or BB when the F75 did? There's more here than "trying to understand".

If noise canceling is in fact changing frequencies, I'd summise that via some type of ground tracking circuit the detector has chosen a few frequencies for detecting (and never more than a few). Let's say 5, 9, 15Khz. During noise canceling, it may be changing 9 to 9.5 and 5 to 4.3 and 15 to 14.9 but it's not arranging the primary frequencies based on that feature. Doing so, would ruin any automatic ground balance work the detector has done.

 

[Born2Dtect]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

WOW! I want what Shambler is having (Espresso maybe?)

"eddiebhome" Where are you? Has any of this helped?

Ed D.

 

[RigDean]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

I was hunting next to another etrac for the first time the other day. My friend powered up first, noise cancelled and channel 9 was selected. His auto sens +3 was running at 26, 27. When I powered up and noise cancelled, channel 10 was selected. My auto sens +3 would run at 21, 22. As we all know, sensitivity affects the depth at which the signal will penetrate the ground.

Could it be that channel 9 was actually the best (quietest) frequency for this area, but since his machine selected it first, my machine selected the next best channel, but ran at a lower sensitivity to reduce chatter and interference, therefore reducing performance?

If this is the case then it would seem to me it would be wise to noise cancel or manually select the channel that allows you to run at the highest sensitivity with the least amount of falsing and chatter. If your detector is on a "noisy" channel then the sensitivity will have to be lowered in order to compensate for "noise", thereby reducing performance and overall detection depth.

I think there should be a wider range of frequency options, such as more channels. Also, the ability to manually choose which frequencies are being used and any number of combinations inbetween...I'm not talking about a turn on and go machine designed for newbies and "ease of use". I'm talking about a machine that comes with a mandatory waiver that states "you might very well go insane with the number of options available on this detector, we (company) are not responsible."

As technologically advanced as everything is, it seems like detectors are running behind as a whole when compared to other technology...(larger)High definition color screens, removable storage for easy pattern/program exchange, battery technology, (optionally) a more focused detection beam for better trash seperation. for example when you've got a grouping of targets co-mingling signals together, go into a "focused" mode that would transmit a 2" wide "beam" into the ground for increased target identification(paint a bullseye on the coil for this mode) not the same as pinpoint as it would utilize discrimination and tones.

Sorry guys, got way off trac here...just ignore the last two paragraphs..

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

I was hunting next to another etrac for the first time the other day. My friend powered up first, noise cancelled and channel 9 was selected. His auto sens +3 was running at 26, 27. When I powered up and noise cancelled, channel 10 was selected. My auto sens +3 would run at 21, 22. As we all know, sensitivity affects the depth at which the signal will penetrate the ground.

Could it be that channel 9 was actually the best (quietest) frequency for this area, but since his machine selected it first, my machine selected the next best channel, but ran at a lower sensitivity to reduce chatter and interference, therefore reducing performance?

If this is the case then it would seem to me it would be wise to noise cancel or manually select the channel that allows you to run at the highest sensitivity with the least amount of falsing and chatter. If your detector is on a "noisy" channel then the sensitivity will have to be lowered in order to compensate for "noise", thereby reducing performance and overall detection depth.

I think there should be a wider range of frequency options, such as more channels. Also, the ability to manually choose which frequencies are being used and any number of combinations inbetween...I'm not talking about a turn on and go machine designed for newbies and "ease of use". I'm talking about a machine that comes with a mandatory waiver that states "you might very well go insane with the number of options available on this detector, we (company) are not responsible."

As technologically advanced as everything is, it seems like detectors are running behind as a whole when compared to other technology...(larger)High definition color screens, removable storage for easy pattern/program exchange, battery technology, (optionally) a more focused detection beam for better trash seperation. for example when you've got a grouping of targets co-mingling signals together, go into a "focused" mode that would transmit a 2" wide "beam" into the ground for increased target identification(paint a bullseye on the coil for this mode) not the same as pinpoint as it would utilize discrimination and tones.

Sorry guys, got way off trac here...just ignore the last two paragraphs..

I have never used an E-trac but am a long time explorer user. If your sens. changes when you noise cancel it sounds like you are able to see the actual value the sense is running at in auto.? If that is the case, are you sure one of you wasn't in man. sense and the other in auto.? If not I tend to agree that the first detector might have got the best channel, and the second was fighting both the detector and other interference when selecting. That or, not all detectors are the same so a little could be the quirk of one unit. Interesting topic but I don't know enough about how the sense works on the E-trac to go on.

 

[Captn SE]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Could it be that channel 9 was actually the best (quietest) frequency for this area, but since his machine selected it first, my machine selected the next best channel,
but ran at a lower sensitivity to reduce chatter and interference, therefore reducing performance

That is a very interesting observation, since now we can see what auto sensitivity value we're running at on the E-Trac. A really good test would have been to walk away from your friend far enough so his E-Trac wasn't cross-talking with your machine, and to manually select Channel 9 to see if your auto sens. value would increase. I'm sure there are many areas in an urban city environment where maybe just a few channels of your Explorer/E-Trac will be noise (EMI) free. There's a park in downtown Los Angeles I hunt regularly where it doesn't matter what channel I have selected; my machine would just go crazy from strong EMI on a particular hill. As soon as I moved away from this area, the EMI gets better, and I'm able to hunt at higher sensitivity values.

HH,
CAPTN SE
Dan

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Could it be that channel 9 was actually the best (quietest) frequency for this area, but since his machine selected it first, my machine selected the next best channel,
but ran at a lower sensitivity to reduce chatter and interference, therefore reducing performance

That is a very interesting observation, since now we can see what auto sensitivity value we're running at on the E-Trac. A really good test would have been to walk away from your friend far enough so his E-Trac wasn't cross-talking with your machine, and to manually select Channel 9 to see if your auto sens. value would increase. I'm sure there are many areas in an urban city environment where maybe just a few channels of your Explorer/E-Trac will be noise (EMI) free. There's a park in downtown Los Angeles I hunt regularly where it doesn't matter what channel I have selected; my machine would just go crazy from strong EMI on a particular hill. As soon as I moved away from this area, the EMI gets better, and I'm able to hunt at higher sensitivity values.

HH,
CAPTN SE
Dan

Does the auto sense tend to jump around during the hunt, or stay pretty close to the initial setting? If it jumps, then it probably doesn't matter very much what the detector starts with if it's always adjusting.

 

[Captn SE]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Does the auto sense tend to jump around during the hunt, or stay pretty close to the initial setting? If it jumps, then it probably doesn't matter very much what the detector starts with if it's always adjusting.

I haven't hunted long enough with an E-Trac to monitor how "jumpy" the auto sensitivity is. I'd imagine that it would move around a bit depending on changes in EMI, ground mineral changes, and the quantity of signals in the ground. If the auto sens. drops too much for your liking, you can manually skew it up to a factor of +3. Probably won't make much difference though if you're auto sens is really low....going from auto 9 to auto 12 isn't going to make much of a difference in your depth. I still prefer to run in manual, low to mid 20's for my areas.

CAPTN SE
Dan

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Does the auto sense tend to jump around during the hunt, or stay pretty close to the initial setting? If it jumps, then it probably doesn't matter very much what the detector starts with if it's always adjusting.

I haven't hunted long enough with an E-Trac to monitor how "jumpy" the auto sensitivity is. I'd imagine that it would move around a bit depending on changes in EMI, ground mineral changes, and the quantity of signals in the ground. If the auto sens. drops too much for your liking, you can manually skew it up to a factor of +3. Probably won't make much difference though if you're auto sens is really low....going from auto 9 to auto 12 isn't going to make much of a difference in your depth. I still prefer to run in manual, low to mid 20's for my areas.

CAPTN SE
Dan

Just hit me for the above post that started this....

The different values in the sens. had nothing to do with the noise cancel & what channel, it was the ground the coil was over... which is obviously never the same for both detectors. One was simply in cleaner ground.

It was late when I read the post last night because it seemed more interesting than I think it actually is.

 

[mainer]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Ive been keeping up on this thread, and IP I think you are right with it being the ground you are over when you hit noise cancal. That make sence to me.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Explorer "Noise cancel" question

Ive been keeping up on this thread, and IP I think you are right with it being the ground you are over when you hit noise cancal. That make sence to me.

The noise cancel has nothing to do with it. Even if they had not hit it, their sens would have been different because it's the ground conditions that make the auto react. Noise cancel is just for electrical interference and doesn't affect the sens..