33 and 7 year old progress? thread

[Pripyat]

I have a post over on the native american relics forum regarding a honey hole of points and pottery I'm searching on my property - http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/north-american-indian-artifacts/639049-native-american-artifacts-land-3.html

My son is now infatuated with native americans and their way of life (specifically hunting and crafting). I gave him the option that I would either buy the supplies to make him a native american bow (draw knife) or knapping supplies. He chose knapping supplies so here we go..

We literally had no glass in the house so we rode around the state land and he was more than happy to run along the treeline searching for bottles.





Here he is with his first piece.



I made shoes a requirement immediately after this shot was taken.

His second point, he was SO proud of this thing up until he broke it. He has no idea what he is doing and just wants to do his own thing. He asks for help but I can't help him yet, it's really frustrating. Hoping to change that.



Any tips or comments on how to get him in a situation where he can actually have some amount of success in this hobby would be great. I realize that this isn't a kids sport but maybe some tips on material that is forgiving and tools that make small chips that wouldn't lend themselves to snapping the piece? I'm not sure what I'm really asking.

Here is where I got before I gave up and had to find a box of band-aids.



I'm really struggling to understand when to swap between flaking and bopping. Everything on my piece was done with the bopper although most videos I'm seeing are done near solely with the flaker. I struggle to get enough pressure to flake effectively.

Lastly, if anyone is out of the hobby and has stuff lying around, I will gladly pay less than it is worth, plus shipping. I ordered some stone that will come in this weekend but if I share with my son I know it won't last long. He's also wanting his own tools. Can't blame him.

His mom came to pick him up and he was chipping away on his piece. He says, "Mom, I'm knapping! come here and I'll teach you!". She replies, "...you're playing with broken glass..". This is one of many reasons we didn't get along. His reply was great. "No mom, I'm working. I'm knapping."

 

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[smallfoot]

Show him these:

 

[Quartzite Keith]

Well, I'm almost 50 and have been knapping 15 years and if I tried to percussion flake that bottle bottom, I probably would have snapped it too. Glass like that is good to learn pressure flaking on but is a hard way to go on percussion flaking. For learning percussion you want kind of chunky stuff and all you are trying to do early on is learn to drive long flakes off it. Don't try to make "points". As soon as you get to the point on a piece where you are losing control of the situation, set it aside and start on a new piece. Then as you progress, you go back to those earlier pieces and move them a little further along. Meanwhile, work those pieces of glass and any large percussion flakes you can make with the pressure flaker and you will slowly learn that process as well. Plan on busting up a few hundred pounds of rock!

Now the hard part: I kind of agree with your wife. I think to learn knapping a kid should be more like 15 or older. There's just an awful lot of little details to it, plus the whole danger aspect. Maybe transition your son away from it by looking more at using the sharp rocks as tools to do various things. A stone flake or a broken piece of glass like you show it a great scraper for removing bark from (potential) arrow shafts. Maybe bump him over to making arrows? It is actually pretty easy. I'm sure you have something growing on the property or nearby that will work for shafts. To hold his interest, don't bother with drying the material first then heat straightening. Cold straighten. Every day, once or twice per day, per shaft, he sights down the shaft and does his best to bend out all the curves and wonky spots. Within a week of taking the bark off you will both be surprised how much progress will be made. Another week and it will be good enough for a kid arrow. Round out the fat end as a blunt tip, cut in a nock at the skinny end (maybe with stone tools?), add fletching and let her fly. If you don't want to bother with feathers, start out using duct tape for fletching instead (i.e. the redneck arrow).

Another good project for kids is learning to make cordage (rope) from natural fibers. Very easy once you know what plants to look for and how to do it. (youtube) Easiest this time of year is the inner bark of certain trees and vines. Mulberry, basswood, slippery elm, and papaw are some common examples. Weedy vines like honey suckle, wisteria, bittersweet and even good old kudzu also work. Meanwhile look for stands of nettles, dogbane and milkweed that can be harvested later in fall after they die back to just a dried out stalk.

Bow making is like flint knapping, it really is more complex than you would think and very detail oriented. I would wait on that. Primitive fire making is cool, and kids love that, but maybe wait a few more years on that too. (Mom certainly won't like it!)

Good luck with it. Any quality time you spend with him doing anything is a treasure.

 

[Pripyat]

Thanks for the comments so far. I was looking back at those pics of him looking for bottles and thinking, this entire activity is silly, but it's likely to be one of those things he remembers for the rest of his life. He had a blast.

I got a mixed box of spalls. What material would be best to start with? I got a box from goknapping.com. I wish they were smaller, they are 4 to 6" and thick. A bit intimidating.

[Edit] what's the cheapest way to get rock to practice on? The pieces I got from goknapping look almost too nice to clobbern into bits.

 

[Back-of-the-boat]

I think thickness of the glass is key, if it is thin like a beer bottle he is going to break more try and get some wine bottles or champagne.Volcanic glass obsidian points probably all started out pretty thick and worked down.

 

[Quartzite Keith]

Not sure if still available but try:

KEOKUKCHUNKS

Also look at Neolithics.com and flintknappingspall.com.

It sucks to spent good money on rocks you are just going to slowly torture to death, but it really is the only way. In the beginning you are best off spending some cash to get reliable material. It is hard to learn on bad rock. Once you know how the rock is supposed to act you may want to look for local sources. I am convinced from the pictures you have shown there is a chert source somewhere near you.

 

[Pripyat]

It sucks to spent good money on rocks.

These are so pretty.. figure I should destroy the cheapest first. Any suggestions? Also, any tips on getting multiple usable pieces?

[Edit] I broke a couple flakes off this guy. I like working with stone so much better than glass. What is this, exactly?

 

[ToddsPoint]

I started out just like your boy. Knapping glass or anything that would knap. I figured out pressure flaking on my own but had to watch a pro doing percussion before I figured that out. Don't let him knap in the house. You will have flint chips everywhere. I would get him a copper paddle billet and a round billet 1" X 4". A leather pad 12" X 12" to put on his leg for percussion. I used copper grounding wire, hard copper wire from the railroad tracks, and horseshoe nails for pressure flaking. You could also find a source of flint so you don't have to pay to learn. There is tons of flint along the Savannah River upstream from Savannah on the SC side. I would also buy D.C. Waldorf's book "The Art of Flintknapping" as soon as possible. It has everything you need to know.
That last nodule you posted is real nice. Looks like maybe TX flint or TN?? Gary

 

[Pripyat]

I regret sitting down and ordering all my stuff from one site without doing lots of price comparison and research. My son was on me hard about when I was placing my order since I had already told him I would get us some tools. The rock I got looks to be very good quality but came at a premium. It will be nice using good quality material for evaluating my first strikes and such. So far, the couple bops I have done aligned perfectly with what I was expecting based on the many youtube videos I've watched.

I'm going to post around and email the kentucky flint guy and see if I can either have someone suggest a local source (facebook) or a cheap stone I can order in bulk.

My son would have a blast running around collecting flint. Especially if we field-bop and try to get it down to a core. I would actually pay to do this..

 

[Quartzite Keith]

That is good material to learn on. You are correct that to learn you need quality material so you know when things go wrong it is likely you, not defects in the material. I started out trying to learn using my local quartz and quartzite which was bass ackwards. I spent the first year stumbling around and not making much progress.

The 9 orange-ish pieces top left are heat treated keokuk. Next to that, top right are 5 pieces of black obsidian, 3 mahogany obsidian (obsidian is always "raw", can't be heat treated.) Bottom left are 4 pieces of Texas chert, probably Georgetown, looks raw (not heat treated). That rock will be the toughest and most similar to any stuff you are likely to find on your own. Next to that is two pieces of Novaculite, which is always heat treated. Next to that (bottom right) is two pieces of dacite, a very fine grained basalt which is never heat treated. I would start with the smaller pieces of keokuk and obsidian. Save all large flakes, chunks and unfinished or broken preforms, you will want to revisit them as you get better.

Breaking the larger pieces into smaller working units, called spalling, is it's own special skill set. You can search youtube for good videos on spalling. I wouldn't worry about it on any of those pieces, just start out making the biggest, longest flakes you can manage. At this point you are like someone trying to learn to play the guitar or hit a baseball. Its practice, practice, practice to develop that muscle memory where your mind and body work together without really thinking about it. If all you do is reduce that pile of rocks to flakes, you will learn a lot.

At least with the obsidian, always, always, always wear a good leather glove on the hand holding or supporting the rock.

 

[Pripyat]

Well this was discouraging..
Only way is up from here. I'm going to need a lot more rock..

 

[Quartzite Keith]

That really looks good! I think it took me like 4 months when I started to get that far. And yes, i did start with a rock about the size of a Volkswagen beetle and ended up even smaller than yours. Of course that was back in the old days when we had to knap with the sun in our eyes and wolves nipping at our heels, you young whipper-snappers today have it easy. Set that one aside to finish later and make another one.

Just from that one project you already have a better understanding of the stuff you are finding on your land, don't you?

 

[Pripyat]

Wowww obsidian is hardly comparable to the keokuk. I was getting really frustrated with the keokuk, as the piece got smaller and smaller, it became very difficult to chip the correct piece. I would have everything right (in my eyes), but I'd smack the mess out of it, leave a copper mark on the spot but the flake wouldn't come off. I'd try pressure flaking but it was just too tough for me to get good flakes off. I did not have this problem at all with the obsidian.. 10/10 obsidian experience. One thing I can't quite figure out.. kept getting chips that stopped half-way. Is this a factor of having the platform too low (chips trying to travel too far), or the hit angle?



BTW, my son finally got to see all my new rocks. He had a blast playing with the fragments. He looks like he knows exactly what he's doing. BOP BOP BOP, abrade a little, flake a little, BOP, BOP BOP, etc. It's hilariously cute.



I was thinking about playing with some of the debitage from my land... although i probably shouldn't?

I'm going to start looking through the box of flint from my land and reevaluate very soon.

The kentucky flint website is horrendous, I assumed the guy died decades ago or something and noone turned his site off LOL. I emailed him, he's still in business. Granted, the rock I picked out (banded obsidian) is OOS due to COVID. I'll probably pick up more black obsidian to play with, though.

 

[Pripyat]

So this is rough but I wanted to take pictures before I broke it in half.



Filing this under "first usable point". Obsidian.

My son had the best time flaking these.

 

[Pripyat]

Does anyone know where in the state of SC, NC, or GA that I would be able to find knappable stone? Savannah river was mentioned but I looked around on google maps and unless I've got a boat, I'm concerned I won't be able to get to an assortment of stone. I'd hate to make the trip down there and not be able to find an accessible site.

 

[Older The Better]

I found a pad like this really helps with pressure flaking. Turning the edges first on the bottles help me get better flakes. Sometimes if you keep trying to strike a spot that won’t flake you can cause the whole piece to break, if it doesn’t go try getting at it from another spot or angle. For me it just took time and practice and slowly things would click I have far less break in half now.

 

[Pripyat]

Thanks for that recommendation, I'll pick one up on my next order.

So I am starting to make sense of spalling. I see how to do things and I see that what I'm doing is rightish? Here's where i stopped on this piece of obsidian. I can get what I want removed from the piece, I just tend to take too much off or end up with a step fracture.







Is it time for the flaker? I'm going to destroy this thing worse than it is already by removing too much material if I keep on with percussion at my current skill level.

 

[Pripyat]

I'll revisit the black obsidian piece I posted earlier later on. Moved onto a shard..



I'm getting the hang of it but my hands are paying the price.. this obsidian is dangerous lol. Band aid should sponsor knap-ins.

My gear is going to be black before it's over with.

 

[ToddsPoint]

You can't just bang away with a billet without setting up platforms. Use your pressure flaker to set up a platform, grind it, then use the billet to remove the flake. It's a fairly slow, step by step process.

The problem with learning percussion is having enough big material to practice on. It would cost a fortune with store bought rock. I solved the problem by finding a creek with flint, put a lawn chair in the creek, (very little water) and broke rocks all day with my big billet. After several hours, the light came on and I made some good progress. You need to find a local knapper that will take you to a creek like described.

And yes, obsidian is dangerous. I consider obsidian workers specialists, and I don't want any part of it. Get a source of flint that is close to home and you'll be okay. I knapped for 22 yrs. but don't anymore. I have some rock and some tools I might part with. Mostly small size flakes and spalls. Might be good for your kid. Gary

 

[Pripyat]

I'm desperately hunting local rock. I'm planning a trip to the river sometime this weekend to see what I can find. Granted, I've never seen big rocks in my part of the pee dee river.. Another member offered up some tools and rock for my son, should be here early next week. I can't wait to see my son's reaction. I told him that someone saw his knapping online and wanted to send him something. He was half in awe, half confused. He asked a hundred times what i thought the guy was sending, I told him I didn't know, that we'd have to wait and see. When he saw my crude mahogany obsidian point last night, he asked if I would teach him to make one like that. I don't think he has the hand strength. Going to pick up some flaking pads soon that will hopefully help with that.