Extremely RARE Indian Peace Medal on eBay - My incredible story!

[Bramblefind]

I am posting this in Today's Finds even though I did not dig this since it is a find of a lifetime - and timely.

I have been working on this project for a few months now. But just today I found out that this medal is not only real, rare and valuable but also SOLD to a very prominent collector for a significant amount of money... so I thought I would post the story here.

I bought this George II silver medal on eBay for less than $100.00. I was the only bidder!

Before I placed my bid I did some preliminary research to try to figure out what it might have been issued for. The only reference that I could find that matched were some descriptions of medals brought over to America in 1753 by the then new governor of New York in order to be given as gifts to the Iroquois Indian chiefs. The eBay medal was advertised as silver but no mention to North American Indians was made in the description - I know the seller had no idea what it was either.

When it finally came to me in the mail I KNEW instantly it had to be something very special. It was bigger than the listing indicated but it was exactly the size I was hoping it would be. I gambled that the seller made a typo when listing it and listed the size a slightly smaller than it actually was - and I was right!

I then - with the help of a few wonderful Tnet members - THANK YOU!! - went about trying to figure out what this medal really was and what it might be worth. I hit so many roadblocks. I contacted a very well known collector of George III Indian Peace Medals and was given a one line response to my lengthy email:

The medal is almost certainly a fake. You can see what a real one looks like on the website of the ANS

when I checked the ANS website no pictures of this medal were there.

I approached two big numismatic auction houses. These were their responses:

I have contacted everyone in the company and we are really not sure what it is or what it could be worth. A few years ago we had a Medals and token expert and could have answer. Best of luck.

This medal appears in Medallic Illustrations of the History of Great Britain and Ireland, British Museum 1904, 1911, 1979, on Plate CLI number 1.. The descrition given there is “GEORGE II. Badge, 1731. Silver. This piece is cast and chased and is of rough workmanship. It has had a loop for suspension which shows that it was probably the badge of some Society; or perhaps intended for distribution amongst the chiefs of the American Indians…” At one time an effort was made to link and king and Arms medals to the Indians. The definitive Indian Peace Medal collection formed by John J. Ford Jr. did not include this type in and condition of metal. The value of the medal in the email might not exceed $200.

I just refused to believe it! I started hitting the google searches and ordering books and I started to find references:

And then my Tnet friends started to make contact with people who actually knew what this medal was and knew it was something fantastic. Things really came together when I contacted the American Numismatic Society and found out they have an example of this medal in their collection and here are some things I learned about it from them-

You are very fortunate to have acquired this item. If it is indeed genuine, your medal is a rare and important historical artifact....

...the ANS specimen is not on display, and is in fact kept off premises in a bank lock box, at an undisclosed location, for security purposes...

I ended up sending the medal to NYC to be authenticated by a well known authority on Colonial medals and coins. He confirmed it was a genuine period silver medal but he thought it was a "general purpose" medal and "Indian related" but not an Indian Peace Medal. I understand now he might be changing his opinion on this but it just goes to show how rare this medal is! I feel so fortunate to have had it in my possession and to have DONE THE RESEARCH to bring this medal to the attention of the people who counted.

As I said at the beginning - a VERY prominent collector made me a fantastic offer of many thousands and purchased this medal. It is possible that "my" medal will be included in upcoming research articles about this class of medals and their use as gifts by the British to the important North American Indian chiefs..

It was only last year I found my first copper detecting. I had never seen one before that. I have only started dabbling on eBay in the last 6 months or so buying an occasional George II or George III halfpenny just so I could see one in person since I hadn't had the fortune to dig one yet. I NEVER would have found this medal or been able to find a buyer for it if not for this forum and the wonderful members who helped me!

 

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[kuger]

You just proved my point. That picture is exactly like all the others that were produced at the time. Just because they documented the use of them for Peace Medals doesn't mean the were 'designed' & made with that in mind. Because if they were I'll expect a difference

The purpose of granting medals to N. American Indian Chiefs was the main reason most of these medals were made during this time. I don't know that these types of medals were being given out all that much for other reasons. Do you know of any other circumstances for the awarding of these large silver medals with the King on the obverse and the royal arms on the reverse?

The other interesting thing about my medal is that it is cast - which is unusual - as most were struck. There has been some speculation that they may have been produced privately with the intention of being used as gifts for the Indians and were not "official". I believe the collector who purchased my medal might know more about it and I hope when he publishes his article I am able to obtain a copy.

But something I am quite sure of is that he would not have paid me the sum he did unless he was CONFIDENT this medal was rightfully placed in the category of being a North American Indian Peace Medal.

 

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[CRUSADER]

You just proved my point. That picture is exactly like all the others that were produced at the time. Just because they documented the use of them for Peace Medals doesn't mean the were 'designed' & made with that in mind. Because if they were I'll expect a difference

The purpose of granting medals to N. American Indian Chiefs was the main reason most of these medals were made during this time. I don't know that these types of medals were being given out all that much for other reasons. Do you know of any other circumstances for the awarding of these large silver medals with the King on the obverse and the royal arms on the reverse?

The other interesting thing about my medal is that it is cast - which is unusual - as most were struck. There has been some speculation that they may have been produced privately with the intention of being used as gifts for the Indians and were not "official". I believe the collector who purchased my medal might know more about it and I hope when he publishes his article I am able to obtain a copy.

But something I am quite sure of is that he would not have paid me the sum he did unless he was CONFIDENT this medal was rightfully placed in the category of being a North American Indian Peace Medal.

Why the Kuger?
All I need to convince me is comptemporary sources documenting their commission as Indian Peace Medals. Its not that long ago & they must exist if this were true. On the other hand I have some well respected books which document a different use, direct from the Mint.
Just because they have been labelled this way due to there use (which I'm not disputing), isn't evidence enough to me, however much someone pays for that connection. (you should know that!)

All I ask is the evidence, where is it?

The books & I maybe wrong, it's just I have seen nothing yet to change my mind, what have you seen that I haven't? (except pass sales records)

Now, I'm quite willing to be wrong, this is an interesting debate, & the locally cast theory might be possible. As it would explain the lack of documentation & they would have copied similar contemporary Medals.

 

[Bramblefind]

I'll look around an try to find something for you. The George III medal has been accepted by the Numismatic world as an example of an Indian Peace medal for many years now. If you find one of those medals - that is what it is. No question. So I will get back to you .. but I have to run out now for a while.

In the meantime - maybe when you get a chance - could you show me the examples from your book of these medals? Is the George III one I posted in there? What does it say it was made for?

Does your book have "similar" medals pictured? Or these exact medals? That is important too.

 

[Don in SJ]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

 

[kuger]

You just proved my point. That picture is exactly like all the others that were produced at the time. Just because they documented the use of them for Peace Medals doesn't mean the were 'designed' & made with that in mind. Because if they were I'll expect a difference

The purpose of granting medals to N. American Indian Chiefs was the main reason most of these medals were made during this time. I don't know that these types of medals were being given out all that much for other reasons. Do you know of any other circumstances for the awarding of these large silver medals with the King on the obverse and the royal arms on the reverse?

The other interesting thing about my medal is that it is cast - which is unusual - as most were struck. There has been some speculation that they may have been produced privately with the intention of being used as gifts for the Indians and were not "official". I believe the collector who purchased my medal might know more about it and I hope when he publishes his article I am able to obtain a copy.

But something I am quite sure of is that he would not have paid me the sum he did unless he was CONFIDENT this medal was rightfully placed in the category of being a North American Indian Peace Medal.

Why the Kuger?
All I need to convince me is comptemporary sources documenting their commission as Indian Peace Medals. Its not that long ago & they must exist if this were true. On the other hand I have some well respected books which document a different use, direct from the Mint.
Just because they have been labelled this way due to there use (which I'm not disputing), isn't evidence enough to me, however much someone pays for that connection. (you should know that!)

All I ask is the evidence, where is it?

The books & I maybe wrong, it's just I have seen nothing yet to change my mind, what have you seen that I haven't? (except pass sales records)

Now, I'm quite willing to be wrong, this is an interesting debate, & the locally cast theory might be possible. As it would explain the lack of documentation & they would have copied similar contemporary Medals.

The " ",was for this,"But something I am quite sure of is that he would not have paid me the sum he did unless he was CONFIDENT this medal was rightfully placed in the category of being a North American Indian Peace Medal."
I see where your are coming from as well,wanting to connect the dots,but with what is shown(data)thats what they were until proven differently?

 

[CRUSADER]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

 

[CRUSADER]

You just proved my point. That picture is exactly like all the others that were produced at the time. Just because they documented the use of them for Peace Medals doesn't mean the were 'designed' & made with that in mind. Because if they were I'll expect a difference

The purpose of granting medals to N. American Indian Chiefs was the main reason most of these medals were made during this time. I don't know that these types of medals were being given out all that much for other reasons. Do you know of any other circumstances for the awarding of these large silver medals with the King on the obverse and the royal arms on the reverse?

The other interesting thing about my medal is that it is cast - which is unusual - as most were struck. There has been some speculation that they may have been produced privately with the intention of being used as gifts for the Indians and were not "official". I believe the collector who purchased my medal might know more about it and I hope when he publishes his article I am able to obtain a copy.

But something I am quite sure of is that he would not have paid me the sum he did unless he was CONFIDENT this medal was rightfully placed in the category of being a North American Indian Peace Medal.

Why the Kuger?
All I need to convince me is comptemporary sources documenting their commission as Indian Peace Medals. Its not that long ago & they must exist if this were true. On the other hand I have some well respected books which document a different use, direct from the Mint.
Just because they have been labelled this way due to there use (which I'm not disputing), isn't evidence enough to me, however much someone pays for that connection. (you should know that!)

All I ask is the evidence, where is it?

The books & I maybe wrong, it's just I have seen nothing yet to change my mind, what have you seen that I haven't? (except pass sales records)

Now, I'm quite willing to be wrong, this is an interesting debate, & the locally cast theory might be possible. As it would explain the lack of documentation & they would have copied similar contemporary Medals.

The " ",was for this,"But something I am quite sure of is that he would not have paid me the sum he did unless he was CONFIDENT this medal was rightfully placed in the category of being a North American Indian Peace Medal."
I see where your are coming from as well,wanting to connect the dots,but with what is shown(data)thats what they were until proven differently?

What data? Did I miss something

 

[Iron Patch]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

Are you referring to just this one, of them in general? Your above post seems to be talking about them all, but this post just this one?

 

[CRUSADER]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

Are you referring to just this one, of them in general? Your above post seems to be talking about them all, but this post just this one?

I'm trying to work out how you can tell the difference. This one could very well be one (looks very likely), but all the evidence so far is mostly sales information. They made these for other reasons & the designs are the same, so I don't understand how some get labelled 'Peace Medals' & others just 'Popular Medalets'??

 

[Iron Patch]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

Are you referring to just this one, of them in general? Your above post seems to be talking about them all, but this post just this one?

I'm trying to work out how you can tell the difference. This one could very well be one (looks very likely), but all the evidence so far is mostly sales information. They made these for other reasons & the designs are the same, so I don't understand how some get labelled 'Peace Medals' & others just 'Popular Medalets'??

Well there is obviously some record of it because we're talking hundreds compared to thousands. Some I would imagine have been dug on Indian settlements in the US so that would be a good start. There's still questions about the one posted here, but not a real surprise when you're talking something so rare. The bottom line is one of the big players made a big offer, and I doubt he feels he's taking a huge risk. Maybe one day I'll find one and can ask him.

 

[Brian C.]

I am posting this in Today's Finds even though I did not dig this since it is a find of a lifetime - and timely.

I have been working on this project for a few months now. But just today I found out that this medal is not only real, rare and valuable but also SOLD to a very prominent collector for a significant amount of money... so I thought I would post the story here.

I bought this George II silver medal on eBay for less than $100.00. I was the only bidder!

Before I placed my bid I did some preliminary research to try to figure out what it might have been issued for. The only reference that I could find that matched were some descriptions of medals brought over to America in 1753 by the then new governor of New York in order to be given as gifts to the Iroquois Indian chiefs. The eBay medal was advertised as silver but no mention to North American Indians was made in the description - I know the seller had no idea what it was either.

When it finally came to me in the mail I KNEW instantly it had to be something very special. It was bigger than the listing indicated but it was exactly the size I was hoping it would be. I gambled that the seller made a typo when listing it and listed the size a slightly smaller than it actually was - and I was right!

I then - with the help of a few wonderful Tnet members - THANK YOU!! - went about trying to figure out what this medal really was and what it might be worth. I hit so many roadblocks. I contacted a very well known collector of George III Indian Peace Medals and was given a one line response to my lengthy email:

The medal is almost certainly a fake. You can see what a real one looks like on the website of the ANS

when I checked the ANS website no pictures of this medal were there.

I approached two big numismatic auction houses. These were their responses:

I have contacted everyone in the company and we are really not sure what it is or what it could be worth. A few years ago we had a Medals and token expert and could have answer. Best of luck.

This medal appears in Medallic Illustrations of the History of Great Britain and Ireland, British Museum 1904, 1911, 1979, on Plate CLI number 1.. The descrition given there is “GEORGE II. Badge, 1731. Silver. This piece is cast and chased and is of rough workmanship. It has had a loop for suspension which shows that it was probably the badge of some Society; or perhaps intended for distribution amongst the chiefs of the American Indians…” At one time an effort was made to link and king and Arms medals to the Indians. The definitive Indian Peace Medal collection formed by John J. Ford Jr. did not include this type in and condition of metal. The value of the medal in the email might not exceed $200.

I just refused to believe it! I started hitting the google searches and ordering books and I started to find references:

And then my Tnet friends started to make contact with people who actually knew what this medal was and knew it was something fantastic. Things really came together when I contacted the American Numismatic Society and found out they have an example of this medal in their collection and here are some things I learned about it from them-

You are very fortunate to have acquired this item. If it is indeed genuine, your medal is a rare and important historical artifact....

...the ANS specimen is not on display, and is in fact kept off premises in a bank lock box, at an undisclosed location, for security purposes...

I ended up sending the medal to NYC to be authenticated by a well known authority on Colonial medals and coins. He confirmed it was a genuine period silver medal but he thought it was a "general purpose" medal and "Indian related" but not an Indian Peace Medal. I understand now he might be changing his opinion on this but it just goes to show how rare this medal is! I feel so fortunate to have had it in my possession and to have DONE THE RESEARCH to bring this medal to the attention of the people who counted.

As I said at the beginning - a VERY prominent collector made me a fantastic offer of many thousands and purchased this medal. It is possible that "my" medal will be included in upcoming research articles about this class of medals and their use as gifts by the British to the important North American Indian chiefs..

It was only last year I found my first copper detecting. I had never seen one before that. I have only started dabbling on eBay in the last 6 months or so buying an occasional George II or George III halfpenny just so I could see one in person since I hadn't had the fortune to dig one yet. I NEVER would have found this medal or been able to find a buyer for it if not for this forum and the wonderful members who helped me!

Thanks for sharing, it goes to show that alot were mistaking about their view on your buy. Brian C

 

[loud ed]

nice story
its a cracking find even if it was on ebay its called armchair treasure hunting

 

[CRUSADER]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

Are you referring to just this one, of them in general? Your above post seems to be talking about them all, but this post just this one?

I'm trying to work out how you can tell the difference. This one could very well be one (looks very likely), but all the evidence so far is mostly sales information. They made these for other reasons & the designs are the same, so I don't understand how some get labelled 'Peace Medals' & others just 'Popular Medalets'??

Well there is obviously some record of it because we're talking hundreds compared to thousands. Some I would imagine have been dug on Indian settlements in the US so that would be a good start. There's still questions about the one posted here, but not a real surprise when you're talking something so rare. The bottom line is one of the big players made a big offer, and I doubt he feels he's taking a huge risk. Maybe one day I'll find one and can ask him.

I'm not disagreeing with the use & the connection which I'm sure would be enough for a collector to pay big bucks.

I just would feel happier with a realiable source for them being made solely for that purpose. Maybe the collector has this info, I would love to see it?

 

[timekiller]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

Are you referring to just this one, of them in general? Your above post seems to be talking about them all, but this post just this one?

I'm trying to work out how you can tell the difference. This one could very well be one (looks very likely), but all the evidence so far is mostly sales information. They made these for other reasons & the designs are the same, so I don't understand how some get labelled 'Peace Medals' & others just 'Popular Medalets'??

Well there is obviously some record of it because we're talking hundreds compared to thousands. Some I would imagine have been dug on Indian settlements in the US so that would be a good start. There's still questions about the one posted here, but not a real surprise when you're talking something so rare. The bottom line is one of the big players made a big offer, and I doubt he feels he's taking a huge risk. Maybe one day I'll find one and can ask him.

Maybe one day I'll find one and can ask him.

Yea you got that right what's his #
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,343494.msg2601665.html#msg2601665

 

[Iron Patch]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website. For Cru, perhaps you can find out what the British Museum considers what they consider the medal to be, since they had one of the others in their collection, but you can see from this ANS page, that ANS considers it a Peace Medal.
Being cast as stated might be even more evidence they were made especially for that purpose, but that is in research that is on going with one of the ANS museum proprietors. There is more evidence of it being one than any evidence of it being "just a medal of the period" from all I have read, but the bottom line, the person who purchased it and who is a knowledgeable collector of medals, knew what he was doing, I am sure......

Maybe if we drew an Indian on the back of the medal with a drawn bow, shooting at a deer, than you would be convinced.

Don

Why the

No room for debate anymore These are all pretty good evidence & its leaning more that way, but there is still lots of riggle room, don't you think?

This site convinces me a little more:
http://www.artiquesroadshow.com/notablefinds.htm

My point still stands, that they had produced many similar 'popular medalets' as discribed in Jetons,Medalets and Tokens, British Isles circa 1558-1830 vol.3 by Michael Mitchiner, in various sizes from 25mm-51mm. In many metals including silver.

Now if they copied these to give to the Indians then fine but my point still stands. Why have none of these experts you talk about got any good referrences? (what tells this one apart from the others?)

Are you referring to just this one, of them in general? Your above post seems to be talking about them all, but this post just this one?

I'm trying to work out how you can tell the difference. This one could very well be one (looks very likely), but all the evidence so far is mostly sales information. They made these for other reasons & the designs are the same, so I don't understand how some get labelled 'Peace Medals' & others just 'Popular Medalets'??

Well there is obviously some record of it because we're talking hundreds compared to thousands. Some I would imagine have been dug on Indian settlements in the US so that would be a good start. There's still questions about the one posted here, but not a real surprise when you're talking something so rare. The bottom line is one of the big players made a big offer, and I doubt he feels he's taking a huge risk. Maybe one day I'll find one and can ask him.

I'm not disagreeing with the use & the connection which I'm sure would be enough for a collector to pay big bucks.

I just would feel happier with a realiable source for them being made solely for that purpose. Maybe the collector has this info, I would love to see it?

Well two points that I think are very in favor is... 1) Some seem to have been cast or struck in very low numbers which really isn't typical unless there's an intended use... and 2) the early ones actually show an Indian on the reverse. When you consider how many British medals are out there, there has to be a reason why these command such high prices... well there is, just not for the one posted above which made it harder to research and find a good buyer.

 

[Bramblefind]

I'm not disagreeing with the use & the connection which I'm sure would be enough for a collector to pay big bucks.

I just would feel happier with a realiable source for them being made solely for that purpose. Maybe the collector has this info, I would love to see it?

I really hope he does because I would love to see it too! However, in my communications with the ANS what was stressed the most was how very unknown this medal's origins are. What it has going for it -

Rarity- from what I know there is one in the British Museum, one at the ANS, my example and possible 3 others in private hands. Making possibly 6 known at this time.

The N.A. Indian Connections - the ANS example was supposedly found "on an Indian trail" in Labrador, Canada over 100 years ago. There are references in literature to an example held by a family near Syracuse, NY in the 19th C that had family legend of being formerly owned by an Indian Chief.

There are references in the Quaker meeting records in PA of them distributing medals exactly matching this description in the years prior to them making their own medal - the 1757 George II Quaker Medal.

There is the reference to Gov. Danvers Osborne bringing 30 of these medals to New York in 1753 to be given as gifts to the Iroquois Indian Chiefs.

So there are a few examples known to me of how this medal likely did serve as an "Indian Peace Medal". I have never been able to find this medal listed in any other connotation but that. The only reference -when the medal is referenced - that does not classify this medal as an Indian Peace Medal absolutely is the Hawkins book. And in that book he is not sure how to classify it - it could be a "badge of some society" or an Indian medal. Interestingly - Mr. Hawkins was a curator at the British Museum and it is a medal from his collection that is the one of this type of medal held by them.

I also contacted British sources to try to get information on this medal. I wrote the British Museum and a prominent authority on medals and neither could tell me anything about it or what it might have been used for.

 

[Bramblefind]

The one in the ANS museum now appears on their website.

Don

Thank you for finding that Don As you know it wasn't there when I first started researching this. It must be a very recent addition to their site

 

[Iron Patch]

Just curious here...but what part of this "peace" medal indicates peace? I would think there would be clasped hands (handshake) or other pictorial references indicating peace.

Wouldn't something like this be useless to a native American back in the 1700s?

A Purple Heart or the Medal of Honor doesn't have a soldier on it. No different. It was about making peace and the medal was nothing more than a token of appreciation, recognition or acceptance.

 

[Don in SJ]

SWR, you also must consider that most Indians would be proud to wear a gigantic silver medal around his neck, regardless of what was on it, afterall, a lot of beads were used in the same time frame to befriend and trade with Indians. It sure would not be considered useless, that is for sure.

This medal would have been a step up compared to the KGI Indian Peace medal I found, mine was not silver, although it did have a bust of King George I on one side, and an Indian shooting at a deer on the other side.

Don

 

[Kenosha Kid]

Just curious here...but what part of this "peace" medal indicates peace? I would think there would be clasped hands (handshake) or other pictorial references indicating peace.

Wouldn't something like this be useless to a native American back in the 1700s?

A Purple Heart or the Medal of Honor doesn't have a soldier on it. No different. It was about making peace and the medal was nothing more than a token of appreciation, recognition or acceptance.

It was probably more as a symbol of their word than as any value or usefulness to Native Americans ... the paper a treaty was signed on wasn't useful but the fact that they were signed (gave your word) is what mattered most.

Deals were made back then and backed up with objects ... signatures, guns, metals, etc. I mean, there was no deed signed for Manhattan, but it was bought for a load of cloth, beads, hatchets, etc.