French smallsword quillon block circa 1700

[umrgolf]

-update in reply #4 below from small sword "expert" on swordforum.com

Not sure its my best find, but its definitely my favorite.. I've tried a couple times to have it fully ID'ed and all I've come up with is 17th-18th century French, and been told the figures are possibly French masters of the sword



I found this in '08 in Albany County NY, settled by the Dutch and French in the early 1600's.

[Brian C.]

That is a nice find for sure, never seen anything quite like that, it looks like it might sat on top of something.HH

[umrgolf]

That is a nice find for sure, never seen anything quite like that, it looks like it might sat on top of something.HH

Im anything but a sword expert but wondering if the handle was wood? its hollow all the way through btw

[CC Hunter]

umrgulf,

The hollow area of your brass quillon block, is where the steel tang of the blade would have passed through. For strength, the blade and tang must be be one piece, through the quillon and handle. The handle would then have been covered in other material, to provide a comfortable and firm grip. Bone, ivory, wood, leather, sharkskin, and other materials have long been used in the handles of edged weaponry. A bit more research may provide clues as to the actual material most likely used for your example.

CC Hunter

[umrgolf]

umrgulf,

The hollow area of your brass quillon block, is where the steel tang of the blade would have passed through. For strength, the blade and tang must be be one piece, through the quillon and handle. The handle would then have been covered in other material, to provide a comfortable and firm grip. Bone, ivory, wood, leather, sharkskin, and other materials have long been used in the handles of edged weaponry. A bit more research may provide clues as to the actual material most likely used for your example.

CC Hunter

Thank you for your detailed reply... I posted this at swordforum.com (Buckleboy did the same for this piece a couple years ago and we only heard a general ID)

I think this pretty much sums it up



Jeffrey,

This looks like a quillon block from a eighteenth century smallsword. Without any further investigation or evidence, I would date the piece from around 1700.

Here are the telltale signs:

1 - It is a quillon block with an integral false ricasso, which is typical of smallswords.

2 - The concave shape of the false ricasso places this sword later than a transitional piece from the mid-1600s. In most earlier weapons, the false ricasso was parallel-sided. However, the fluted pas d'ane are rather stout, which (and this is a gross generalization) tends to date a piece from the turn of the century.

3 - All around the base of the false ricasso, you can observe an indentation--this was typical of smallsword hilts. It served no practical purposes besides being a decoration.

4 - The smaller-diameter, flared section below the false ricasso is the element around which the shell-plate would have been fitted.

5 - The piece looks more like cast (bronze, or less likely, brass) rather than chiseled. Provenance is harder to pinpont--perhaps continental.

6 - The decoration is "grotesque," not meant to represent actual persons or historical characters.

Other than that, I couldn't observe too much more from these photos. I hope this helps.

Tom Leoni

-Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

-Author, The art of dueling, Fiore Translation (Getty),
Venetian Rapier: Translation of Giganti's 1606 Rapier Manual
The Complete Renaissance Swordsman: Manciolino's 1531 Opera Nova in English

-Virginia Academy of Fencing: Italian Rapier, Bolognese Swordsmanship and German Longsword in the DC Area.

-Founder and head, Order of the Seven Hearts and CFAA founding member

[CMDiamonddawg]

1700 you received some interesting id help . The grotesque character , both faces look different . The one face with the handlebar mustache looks like a biker friend of mine . Very cool find Jeff 8)

[umrgolf]

1700 you received some interesting id help . The grotesque character , both faces look different . The one face with the handlebar mustache looks like a biker friend of mine . Very cool find Jeff 8)

I imagine he isn't very small either

[SC Keith]

Very cool find Jeff!

[umrgolf]

Very cool find Jeff!

Thanks Keith

[bluehunter1973]

nice find

[Henry2]

May I ask where in Albany did you find this. I live a couple cities over, the area is rich with history but you don't see that many items of that age popping up. Great find by the way

[umrgolf]

May I ask where in Albany did you find this. I live a couple cities over, the area is rich with history but you don't see that many items of that age popping up. Great find by the way

I had just bought my F75 and the dealer took me to a remote county park in the middle of nowhere in Albany county.. I only briefly lived in NY attending nuclear prototype, sorry I dont know the parks name.. we were out looking for modern silver.. it was in centerfield in the park's T-ball field i almost threw it away and Carl (upstate detectors) told me to keep and clean it off, glad I did

[curbdiggercarl57]

That is one cool find! And one of the few posts where I had to look up the definition, or at least explanation, of more than one word!

I is smarter!

Hopefully some of our English brethren might have some photos or old drawings showing a more complete one.

Again, killer find!

Carl

[Henry2]

May I ask where in Albany did you find this. I live a couple cities over, the area is rich with history but you don't see that many items of that age popping up. Great find by the way

I had just bought my F75 and the dealer took me to a remote county park in the middle of nowhere in Albany county.. I only briefly lived in NY attending nuclear prototype, sorry I dont know the parks name.. we were out looking for modern silver.. it was in centerfield in the park's T-ball field i almost threw it away and Carl (upstate detectors) told me to keep and clean it off, glad I did

I'm glad you did to that is a cool find. It was nice of Carl to bring you out detecting, I picked up a couple detectors from his shop before he moved out of state. Now you got me interested in this park, I gonna have to do some research to find what parks have T-ball fields

[umrgolf]

May I ask where in Albany did you find this. I live a couple cities over, the area is rich with history but you don't see that many items of that age popping up. Great find by the way

I had just bought my F75 and the dealer took me to a remote county park in the middle of nowhere in Albany county.. I only briefly lived in NY attending nuclear prototype, sorry I dont know the parks name.. we were out looking for modern silver.. it was in centerfield in the park's T-ball field i almost threw it away and Carl (upstate detectors) told me to keep and clean it off, glad I did

I'm glad you did to that is a cool find. It was nice of Carl to bring you out detecting, I picked up a couple detectors from his shop before he moved out of state. Now you got me interested in this park, I gonna have to do some research to find what parks have T-ball fields

It was definitely in the country along a state highway and somewhat rundown, it didn't appear there had been many ballgames there recently, but there were other ballfields there too (big park)... when you pulled into the park you drove up a hill for a couple hundred yards and that ballfield was the first thing you got to.. It was the only old find of the day. Carl, myself and the other guy we were with all found a few wheaties and mercs but that was the extent of it aside from this find

That is one cool find! And one of the few posts where I had to look up the definition, or at least explanation, of more than one word!

I is smarter!

Hopefully some of our English brethren might have some photos or old drawings showing a more complete one.

Again, killer find!

Carl

Thanks Carl, check out this link.. Mr. Leoni provided a picture of a similar sword (scroll to bottom)

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...-quillon-block