Harvest a deer with stone point help?

[Tnmountains]

Hello knappers
I was talking with thirty7 about an idea I had. I would like to harvest a deer this season with my compound bow and use a stone point. OK why a compound and not traditional. First my skill level is very good with a compound and poor with traditional. Second I want to insure the correct fps and kinetic energy to get a dbl lung shot for a quick kill. Third I feel and this is the hard part I want to use a carbon arrow to handle the speed of the bow.
Sounds impossible.It might be but that's why I am here.
I am not worried about the union between the two being primitive.My goal is to study the cut penetration and hopefully impact fracture.
So what type point? Maybe a disputed type. A common found south eastern snapped stem. This would give the strength of the shaft pushing the point. Thirty7 suggested taking the animal at around 20 feet.I think this is smart due to the fletchings usually having a right helical twist. And I do not want to have a warble.
What do you guys suggest. Any knappers think this is plausible to marry the the point to shaft?
I will happily pay for the point or can dig one out of a frame but think i need say a fresh hard material (sharp).
Yay or Nay?
I have some wooden shafts but they are to short for my draw length.Hmmmmm
Thanks everyone
TnMountains

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[terryo]

Interesting experiment! While I don't hunt critters, I have always been fascinated by those that had to live off the land.As a long time artifact hunter, I find a considerable number of average sized "arrowheads" to be in reality knives and atlatl points(shortish , mechanically assisted hand launched spears) Most point types are going to be too large/heavy to penetrate at much distance.I read somewhere that at a lot of buffalo kill sites, the points were found to be approx. 1/2" long on average.
The use of carbon fiber shafts may give a different effect if you are trying to replicate ancient arrowhead impact fractures.I am certainly no expert on the topic, but am very interested in the results you obtain! Physical limitations keep me from drawing a bow much anymore, but I will be looking forward to your posts come bow season! Good luck, and HH!

[Th3rty7]

Sounds like a good challenge. I think it could be done rather easily with good results, freshly knapped edges on flint and obsidian are sharper than steel. I'd start with a narrow stemmed form ( lamoka, dickson for example) and pressure flake the stem until it fits snug into the arrow. You could use epoxy or strong glue for a better fit. You could even get fancy, and knapp a stemmed piece with notches and lash and bind that sucker on there. I've included a quick drawing to show what I'm talking about. Hope you can see the pencil lines.

In the second pic you could knapp the stem to marry the carbon fiber arrow.

[Th3rty7]

Forgot to add, I'd be happy to knapp some stemmed points for you by hunting season, I wouldn't charge you anything. I'd be interested in the results. Let me work on it a bit, and try some designs. Problem is your gonna need several fixed arrows with similar weight, specs, to practice with. That arrowhead will break easy if it hits something solid.

Carbon fiber arrows would be the way to go here, preferably a light arrow to compensate for a 2-3 times heavier flint arrowhead. What's the draw weight on your bow? If say 70 lbs, I'd get some 55-60 lb arrows to balance it out.

[Tnmountains]

I was just thinking of the practice. If I stay sighted in with my broadheads(in case big boy comes by) I will be way off with a stone point ...unless I am very close then I have a pie size target to hit.
Right? I think I can drive it thru at say 20 feet. I was pulling around 73lbs but have backed off some due to a pulled muscle. I am going to have to think on this some as I will be elevated at least 20 feet unless I hunt from the ground. A twenty foot shot would be straight down and would have to be very precise,,hmmmm
That is some fine drawings and I understand them completely. I would be happy to share some horns or artifacts for your efforts? Or knapp a couple and take a weekend and come hunt on my lease? Fill your freezer.

[Th3rty7]

I was just thinking of the practice. If I stay sighted in with my broadheads(in case big boy comes by) I will be way off with a stone point ...unless I am very close then I have a pie size target to hit.
Right? I think I can drive it thru at say 20 feet. I was pulling around 73lbs but have backed off some due to a pulled muscle. I am going to have to think on this some as I will be elevated at least 20 feet unless I hunt from the ground. A twenty foot shot would be straight down and would have to be very precise,,hmmmm
That is some fine drawings and I understand them completely. I would be happy to share some horns or artifacts for your efforts? Or knapp a couple and take a weekend and come hunt on my lease? Fill your freezer.

I would think that taking a shot from a stand would be best for this type of hunt. 1. because it would be easier to get a short distance to your target, and 2. a downward angle on the shot would fly better than a horizontal flight path. I'll do some knapping this weekend and get back to you.

[Th3rty7]

Alright Tn, making some progress here. Very narrow stemmed arrowheads is definitively the way to go here. In the first pic, the middle point locks in pretty solid with a gentle twist. You could probably get one dialed in tight without using some type of glue. One shot per arrow is all you'll probably get, because any solid impact will snap the stem, or offset the point. The point that fits is pretty thick, and beveled down to a point on 4 sides, it's a formidable sticker and actually well balanced with the arrow. I'd feel confidant out to 20 yards with this rig, little further from a treestand.

[Tnmountains]

Thirty7

The points look fantastic ! It looks as if they will mate up very well. I like the fact that the base seems to be giving the point great strength. It propably will shatter at the base but I am thinking the point will have served its purpose by then in a quick dispatch. My plan is to carry the arrow and only I repeat only if it looks like I will be presented with a very close shot will I knock that stone point. My goal is first to recover the animal and then the point. It looks is if it will do as good a job if not better than my razors. The kinetic energy will be fantastic.
Thank you so much for using your skill. As with hunting it may never happen but if it does I will have pictures and meat in the freezer. My plan is to use a piece of flint and time how long it takes to dress one out. Something about these tools...........
Would you accept in trade a set of horns from some previous harvest to use in your knapping ?

Great job,just great.

Thanks
TnMountains

[Th3rty7]

Some nice racks Tn. Trade sounds good, I could use a new pressure flaking tool ( dog is always running away with them) , lower tines on whitetail antlers are always good, the older the better. I've got some slab obsidian that I'll work into a point, it'll be sharper than the flint for sure. I'll leave a couple of the stems just a fraction wide so you can fit them. Any course stone will reduce them to a snug fit. A knife sharpening stone works well. Have a good one.

[Tnmountains]

Im pumped. I am trying to shoot at least once a day right now. Gettin in the groove. All the old,old racks are on the wall,lol.
I appreciate your help so much.

TnMtns

[creek astronaut]

now you have me wanting to do this hunting experiment.cant wait to here your results.Have you weighed a broadhead v. the weight of a flint dart.I know whenever i make any little adjustment to my equiptment/gear it can sometimes make a big difference,I am not really questioning,you seemed to have covered everything.are you going to practice with the flint darts.I may try this experiment but I am going to use a triangle point hafted to a short shaft(maybe 2 or 3 inches)and have that fit in the arrow shaft.I just think the weight of a triangle with coupling shaft would be more close to a modern broadhead than anything else,but who knows until you try it out.Didnt know you had knapping skills thirty7,pretty cool.

[Th3rty7]

now you have me wanting to do this hunting experiment.cant wait to here your results.Have you weighed a broadhead v. the weight of a flint dart.I know whenever i make any little adjustment to my equiptment/gear it can sometimes make a big difference,I am not really questioning,you seemed to have covered everything.are you going to practice with the flint darts.I may try this experiment but I am going to use a triangle point hafted to a short shaft(maybe 2 or 3 inches)and have that fit in the arrow shaft.I just think the weight of a triangle with coupling shaft would be more close to a modern broadhead than anything else,but who knows until you try it out.Didnt know you had knapping skills thirty7,pretty cool.

I taught myself to knapp a few years back with the help of a book on the subject. Just as I was getting pretty comfortable and confident with it I started developing problems with my hands like carpel tunnel and took a few jabs through the leather that made me reconsider the hobby. I still do some knapping evey now and then but not like I used to. I tell you what though, it has helped me in hunting for authentic artifacts big time. Once you become familiar with a worked edge and cochoidal fractures from knapping yourself, seeing it and recognising the real stuff in the fields and creeks is alot easier.

[Tnmountains]

Yeah thirty7 did make some dandy points.
Greg no on the practice part. It will have to be a close shot. That way any error I might have (wobble.flex,helical twist) will still keep me in the kill zone. Perfect shot for me would be a 1/4 away behind back shoulder. But it is not a perfect world in hunting so I will take my time. I either get the shot I want or I do not shoot.
Yeah this will be fun.

TnMtns

[bravowhiskey]

Hey TN,

Man, you guys do get around. I have a fletching machine you can use. It is old and may be home made. It has coils of wire that heat and then the feather is cut by the heated wire. The wire being bent in whatever shape you want your fletching to come out.
I had never seen one before so that may be the way they are all made. I'll get pics if I can still find it.
Then your hybrid would be some closer to an authentic recreation.
I too am interested in your experiment. It has always been a dream to build the bow, arrow, and point to take down a deer. Skinning with the flint knife is a great way to end your test.
There are a few Osage Orange trees I have access to that were one of the types used for bow building, back in the day. What a trip that would be.
Looks like you will have plenty of help, both moral and physical.
Now if the dang old deer will just cooperate.

BW

[Tnmountains]

Yeah man we got the deer but they never listen to me.Tried the deer whisper thing and they ran away I am ok with the rate of twist. I am thankful for all the help and suggestions. Appreciate the offer on the fletcher though but think I will be ok. Is it an old Jo-Jan? The whole thing will be fun. Thirty7 pulled some fine skills out and made some good points.
I have turned the Osage orange on my lathe. Thats that spiky thing we call a horse apple tree right? They will make a fine primitive bow. I do not have time to learn to be to primitive,lol.
Still diggin your wood weapons from africa.
TnMtns

[kuger]

Hello,I have skinned animals with obsidian,and will tell youit is far superior to any knife made today.The Buffalo I took,required five hours to skin(by myself)with three metal knives......I sure wished I had an obsidian one that day!!!!I have never used stone points to hunt although had a freind that did.He and I knapped the first points and matched them all down to the grains,for accurate consistent flight.He was already an accomplished bow maker and took many animals with his handcrafted bows.We also made our own arrows,I had made many to sell to tourists,but will tell you to make them to hunt with and shoot accuratly was a different story!!!We ....he got them all dialed in and took a deer the first time he went out.The next hunt with them was a bull elk I called in and he made a beutiful shot and the animal succumbed within 50 yards(he actually had a complete pass through,and if we had not seen the bull go down the trail left,well Stevie Wonder could have followed it!After that my freind hunted solely with stone points and took countless big game.I wish he were still around,he was killed several years ago.

[chong2]

i dunno if you already did your hunt, but somewhere i read the folsom point was probally the best tip created for a bow and arrow, even though the tech was not around back then.

[Tnmountains]

i dunno if you already did your hunt, but somewhere i read the folsom point was probally the best tip created for a bow and arrow, even though the tech was not around back then.

Chong
Not yet. The season opens Saturday and they are calling for rain. Normally rain would not be a problem but everything is already flooded. Some creeks crested at around 20 feet. This may be good news cause floods can make patterning the animals easier. Thirty7 knapped me some points to try. I am only going to use the stone point if its a very up close chance.
Yeah the folsum would be nice but I am not doing a pure primitive hunt as my skill is in the compound not recurve.
TnMtns

[coteau]

TnMountains,
I'm surprised that that would even be legal! Flint tips aren't allowed for hunting here in ND.

i dunno if you already did your hunt, but somewhere i read the folsom point was probally the best tip created for a bow and arrow, even though the tech was not around back then.

There are miniature Folsom points (and other Paleoindian points) that are thought to be too small to have been used on spears. Some of the miniature points are less than 1/2" long by 1/4" wide. Even though the bow and arrow technology wasn't supposed to have existed thousands of years ago, some have suggested that Folsom people used the miniature points for arrows and the larger points for spears/atlatl. Other suggestions are that the miniature points were for children, or used in shamanistic rituals, etc.

[Tnmountains]

Yep its legal. I just have to pull x amount of lbs is all. Says nothing about the projectile. The populations are so great that south of me in Ala and I think Ga and possibly other states you may hunt with a spear or even just a bowie knife on Hogs . I think we have a resposibility to be humane and quick. Of course this attitude has only appreared in the last 50 years out of 12,000 +.
We will see it has to be just right if not I will run a razor point thru like I always do and it will be meat in my freezer or the community kitchens. In Tennessee we can take about 12 or more deer per person. I have to take at least 7 this year to just fill freezers but we need to harvest over 100 does this year among 10 guys. Last year we only got about 60. In Alabama it used to be one deer a day for over three months.
I also work with wildlife biologist and state officials on my tracts with around 4000 acres of private land.
HH
TnMtns