Seeing the copper marks

[theonlinefisherman]

Hey all. Today was a day of gathering and organizing my collection. I like myself today. And so, too, does my wife. As the collection grows my small piece of (big) house my wife allows me to use as museum shrinks

I am writing a story. I need your help to make it better.

Tell me how you know a point is a kill. I have had pieces killed that were authentic. I am also a pretty good knapper, and am working my way through the Overton book. I love to work with original and point-accurate materials. But I know my work. I have friends that know points that I could fool. So could any decent knapper. And if you see the work of guys like paleomanjim on YouTube, they do freaken Daltons and can push flutes all the way to the point of raw flint.

So here is the help I need. How do you know a point is real? I hate to say my gut is as important, and so, too is any of the COA masters we all know. Those guys have their stuff papered by each other.

What are the three things you look for that tells you something is fake? Or real? Patina is obvious. Copper marks are obvious (Daltons cannot be made with antler). What else? What do you us to look? A loupe? A microscope? Digital macro cameras?

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[GTK96]

Some guys check the edges with magnifying glasses... Lemme get a link i think youll find interesting real quick, listen to when he talks about the edges being turned... Brb

[GTK96]

Couldnt find on ipod but ill deffinently get that for you tommorow

[Tnmountains]

Can't do 3 things cause fakers can create almost any flaking on correct stone with patina But....
I never buy anything and anything given to me is documented and kept separate in a place of honor. That way.I can enjoy Mandan or Kolomoki a little S.American and western or whatever.
But my collection is clean and represents my finds from the s.east.( weird huh?) I have seen large good collections ruined because people got obsessed with collecting and bought everything from everybody. Nothing wrong with that if that is where you want to take your hobby. To me it would be like buying mounted deer/fish someone else killed/caught, lol. But there is a market for buyers and sellers so that is cool.
I do have a couple good microscopes though cause I enjoy the different patina's from various sites.
So "Just say No". : )

[birdpointgriswold]

Well I would say with some materials the patina. I can tell if one of my points has been chipped recently due to the fact the chipped part s color is way different that the rest of the stone. Another way I would think is the edges. Shouldn't be sharp, yes somewhat the are all still sharp, but not razor. and notches would be rounded due to age in the ground. The only material I would find hard to id if real or fake is quartz. Its hard to see the flaking on it period.

Johnathan Griswold

[natchitoches]

(Daltons cannot be made with antler).
well how did the indian make them then?
thay did not have Copper bobber

[GatorBoy]

I agree with TnMountains all the way. I do the same. Also I'm sure your collection is impressive and I say this completely friendly... (Theonlinefisherman) But after knowing your background as a knapper and listening to all your talk about eBay I could never look at any of it as authentic... Its tainted. I might sound like I'm being rood but I belive I am speaking for many when I say that. I hope you at least keep your personal finds seperate.To me Its like a person selling a 100 dollar bill for 50 dollars and assuring you its not counterfeit with a printing press in the other room.

[GTK96]

(Daltons cannot be made with antler).
well how did the indian make them then?
thay did not have Copper bobber

Some copper was actually traded from the great lakes region to as far as florida...

[natchitoches]

i belive that to be so, but thay was not makeing it into Copper bobber!!!!!

[GatorBoy]

Never saw one found.

[GTK96]

Oops, they made it into like trade items right?

[unclemac]

three things huh?...ok...
1. hanging flakes...those tiny pieces that should have come off with wear.
2. I like to see some relative "smoothness"...not jagged razor sharpness.
3. perfection of style shape. "all XYZ look like THIS"...and what do you know BAM this one is a perfect example of it.

more...

4. I check out ebay all the time for fun, I enjoy spotting fakes by looking at profiles of what else the guy has sold. Dead giveaway....some unique looking stone that the guy has multiple examples of in different styles and time periods.

I caught one guy once buying advertized repros...roughing them up...and selling them months later as "my connections on the res sold me...blah, blah, blah."

...most of all, I trust what I have found MYSELF.

[GTK96]

Oops, they made it into like trade items right?

[natchitoches]

yes, and if any been found in fl. it be super rare. i would think
45 years of hunting here in texas, and i, have not found any copper

[GTK96]

I bet itwas expensive...

[GatorBoy]

This turns out to be a perfect time for me to post these items I recovered from a site hear in Florida. The site has produced points from middle archaic all the way to Mississippian even a black glass arrowhead. What do you guys think? I'm only posting this here because I thought it may be relevant to the spread of copper.
These were burried amongst pottery and even bone tools

[GatorBoy]

I also wanted to talk about how a point might be I.D.'d as a kill. 1) there are paterns to how points tend to break from frontal impact as compared to the force coming from above.2) if a point broke during manufacture there is often things left unfinished like secondary flaking.3) this is just my opinion but if multiple pieces of a point are found in the same area and there is no reason to belive heavy machinery or other forces were present to break it then it would seem more likely to me. If a point broke while hunting it seems to me that if possible the base at least would be brought back to camp for reworking. At least that's what I've noticed. Tips found on hunting grounds and bases found at campsites and villages.

[unclemac]

Oops, they made it into like trade items right?

yeah, all kinds of stuff...bows with arrows, shafted lances, war clubs etc.

[GTK96]

Geez, i thought it was just like bangles... Wouldnt mind finding a copper war club sometime, though!

[tomclark]

Likely Indian Wars 1 or 2

A point could be fake if you don't find it yourself, in-situ