My first weekend hunting points in Oklahoma

[sidmind]

My wife and I have been wanting to go hunting for some time and finally this last weekend the water had dropped in the River, I had spent several weeks asking people for advice so we went out. When we arrived another couple were already hunting points, and because I had very little clue to what I was doing I asked for some advice, after only 15 minutes of talking and walking with him I looked down and found my first Arrow Head just sitting on top of the ground a few feet from the water. Lucky me!

I am so excited and looking forward to more, anyone have a clue as to which type it is or how much it's worth? not that I plan to sell it.

I have ordered the price guide but it will be a 10-14 days for delivery.




below is just some of the flint and scrapers we found(11-8-2008 and 11-9-2008), along with a few fossils and a Gemstone rock of some sorts.
My wife found most of what you see there, I got lucky on the point, but she seems to have a better eye than I do.

 

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[Monty]

I live not far from the Arkansas River myself and the chips and flakes would be indicative that there might be point and tools in the area. There has also been many finds of mastadon bones and tusks as well as ancient bison skulls along the river bed in our area. Every time the water rises and drops it is possible that new things can be uncovered. That is one beautiful point, almost perfect I would guess. Go up to the Gilcrease museum and go down in the basement and look at all the thousands of points they have in their collection. They are stored in huge drawers along one wall. I would guess they are not worth a lot monitarily as there are so many in this area of the state. However, to you they might be priceless. Monty

 

[Neanderthal]

Nice Edgewood point, and the material appears to be heated Kay county chert. Judging from the amount of spalls you found, you must have been hunting up in northern Oklahoma, closer to Kaw. The lower part of the river is pretty sparse in debitage, you'll often find more full points than you will pieces.

Monty, the sad thing about Gilcrease is that they only have 3% or less of their collection on display at any one time. They have some of the finest relics there are, but it's a mix & match collection (alot of fakes in there). Greg Perino used to be the curator of the Gilcrease at one time, then he moved on to the Red River museum down at Idabel. My favorite flint pieces they have in there are a cache of Smith blades. The Smith blades are the largest found and were found in a shelter over by Kenwood Oklahoma. Don Arthurs found them in the late 60's. The largest blade is around 14 1/2" long (?) and the smallest over 10 1/2" - and all are around 3" wide. They are huge and very well made. The unusually feature about them is that they have extra notches on the SIDE of the tangs. Don told me that he found them in one stack, each carefully laid on top of the other. He sold them to Greg (Perino) back in the 60's for $250, and then greg sold them to the museum. They are, without a doubt, some of the finest flint relics ever recovered in Oklahoma.

Woolaroc up in Bartlesville is another decent museum to check out if you ever get the time. They have a smattering of Spiro material that makes the trip worthwhile.

Matt

 

[pickaway]

Great find congrats keep on lookin...

 

[PALEOMAN]

VERY NICE POINT! if i can pick up flakes all day and a point or 2 i`m having a great day. i always carry off all my flakes.

 

[11KBP]

Nice looking point!

It could just as well be a Pelican Lake point as an Edgewood. From what I have seen over the years I believe the distribution areas of Pelican Lake and the Edgewood type (very similar to the Pelican Lake type) overlap. The distinction between the two appears to be arbitrary.

 

[SouthernGirl]

I alway walk back with a pocket full of flakes. Some of the flakes are so pretty I have to pick them up.

 

[Monty]

My sister-in-law worked at Gilcrease all one summer. She spent the whole time taking points and spearheads, etc out of the archives and cataloging them. They are in the lower level in several dozen drawers. I don't know how many there is but it must be into the thousands. You have to open the drawers to find them as they are not on open display. Monty

 

[Neanderthal]

Nice looking point!

It could just as well be a Pelican Lake point as an Edgewood. From what I have seen over the years I believe the distribution areas of Pelican Lake and the Edgewood type (very similar to the Pelican Lake type) overlap. The distinction between the two appears to be arbitrary.

Even though many people persist in calling many of those points on the river Pelican Lake, I dispute it. While they (Edgewood and Pelican Lake) share a similar outline and age, they are two different cultures. While Edgewood are more known for TX, the same Edgewood cultural items have been found in datable context well up into Oklahoma and the surrounding areas, while Pelican Lake is more of a plains (Canada - Dakotas, etc). point type. They share a similar outline with PL, but that doesn't make them so (or we could also call them Marcos or even Elko for that matter). Here's a bit of interesting bit of information - almost all of the "Edgewood" points illustrated in Perino's guide are from Oklahoma (which the exception of 1, which was found in Arkansas). I've handled and studied those specimens in particular and find the type itself to be intriguing.

It's possible that many of these may not be related to Edgewood either, but an entirely different point altogether. I have been looking for ANY sort of reference to a point style called "Creston" , with no luck. The reason this name pops up is from a Perino artifact. There was a heated Kay Co. corner notched point found at Kaw (upper central Oklahoma) that most collectors would have loosely termed a "Pelican Lake", but it is papered as a Creston. The point is well made and displayed over at the Museum of Native American Artifacts. If anyone has any information on this point type, I would very much appreciate seeing it.

 

[sidmind]

Thanks for the info everyone, I am looking forward to finding more.

 

[*Molly*]

Nice Edgewood.
Congrats.

Molly.

 

[Pinellas Man]

Looks like your looking in the right place, I'm looking foward to seeing more pics.

 

[11KBP]

Creston? Matt are you making up these names …lol. Just kidding.

Creston points are found in western Iowa and named for Creston, Iowa. They are somewhat similar to Pelican Lake but are described as having serrations which Pelican Lake points or Edgewoods do not. (T. Morrow 1984) The location of where the Creston point type was named would be at least 300 miles from “Kaw (upper central Oklahoma)".

Matt you may very well be correct that the point in question is not a Pelican Lake, even though it certainly looks like one.

My point is, if a culture such as Folsom which lasted less than 1000 years left/lost their beautiful points all the way from the Dakotas and down into Texas, why couldn’t a culture such as Pelican Lake which lasted longer be more widespread than you think it was.

Regardless of type ...it sure is a nice point!

 

[Neanderthal]

Creston? Matt are you making up these names …lol. Just kidding.

Creston points are found in western Iowa and named for Creston, Iowa. They are somewhat similar to Pelican Lake but are described as having serrations which Pelican Lake points or Edgewoods do not. (T. Morrow 1984) The location of where the Creston point type was named would be at least 300 miles from “Kaw (upper central Oklahoma)".

Vedy, Vedy interesting! What reference are you using? That's intriguing about the serrations - this point doesn't have any. Do you know of any site references for the type? I appreciate the info!!!! *sigh* that blows my theory about the Creston being named after Greg had a nightmare about toothpaste.

To throw another wrench into the gear of the "Lake/Edge" cog, Robert Bell also portrays a similiar form from Woodland context in Prehistory of Oklahoma. I think it's shows diffusion to a great extent more than a singular culture and we're most likely dealing with different groups of people. Fun to hypothesize about it though!

I agree, wonderful point. I need to get out and find some pointy rocks, haven't been able to for a bit now. I'm having withdrawals.

 

[Jonnyreb]

I alway walk back with a pocket full of flakes. Some of the flakes are so pretty I have to pick them up.

I found my first point when I was 12. I'm 44 now and still am guilty of carrying flakes home!!
Hey, thats an outstanding point you have there. If thats a "first find" then you did really really well.

 

[11KBP]

Creston? Matt are you making up these names …lol. Just kidding.

Creston points are found in western Iowa and named for Creston, Iowa. They are somewhat similar to Pelican Lake but are described as having serrations which Pelican Lake points or Edgewoods do not. (T. Morrow 1984) The location of where the Creston point type was named would be at least 300 miles from “Kaw (upper central Oklahoma)".

Vedy, Vedy interesting! What reference are you using? That's intriguing about the serrations - this point doesn't have any. Do you know of any site references for the type? I appreciate the info!!!! *sigh* that blows my theory about the Creston being named after Greg had a nightmare about toothpaste.

The site references given were 13UN32 and 13UN0, both in Union County, (southwestern Iowa).

The reference itself is called Iowa Projectile points (Toby Morrow 1984). If you can’t find this reference Matt I’ll see if I can find one for you.

 

[Neanderthal]

Sorry for hijacking this thread sid! This information is very important to me, and I really hope you don't mind where the thread has went.

11kbp - I'm having little success finding the publication in stock. If you could scan a page for me or help find the material then I'd name my third born kid after ya!

I'm a stickler and sort of a pit bull when it comes to education (as anyone who knows me can tell you) and absolutely love to learn. THIS particular information means a whole lot to me, let me explain why. This exact topic I used to talk about with Perino frequently. He used to be an advocate for Pelican Lake into Oklahoma, and even published several articles on it. However, like any great scholar, he wasn't tunnel visioned and he too began questioning just exactly where or who some of these corner notched points are associated with. It was a shock to see him paper one a "Creston" where I work and I wonder if our conversations could have led to him thinking they could actually be related to them. So, that's where I am. I have been looking for that particular point type for a bit now with no success.

I'm very curious to see what dates they put on them and to see if those dates are static. As I mentioned a post or two ago, I wonder if they are of woodland context (as referenced by Bell's Prehistory of Oklahoma)? Thanks Kbp!

 

[11KBP]

11kbp - I'm having little success finding the publication in stock. If you could scan a page for me or help find the material then I'd name my third born kid after ya!

This exact topic I used to talk about with Perino frequently. He used to be an advocate for Pelican Lake into Oklahoma, and even published several articles on it. However, like any great scholar, he wasn't tunnel visioned and he too began questioning just exactly where or who some of these corner notched points are associated with.

I'm very curious to see what dates they put on them and to see if those dates are static. As I mentioned a post or two ago, I wonder if they are of woodland context (as referenced by Bell's Prehistory of Oklahoma)? Thanks Kbp!

It does not surprise me Perino was at one time an advocate for Pelican Lakes into Oklahoma. Perino also said of Pelican Lake distribution: “The extent of penetration into the United States (meaning south onto the Great Plains) is not known”.

I feel you would find it very difficult to prove the Pelican Lake Culture which flourished for over 1000 years could not have had a distribution range that included what is now Oklahoma or at least northern Oklahoma. The High Plains and the central Great Plains including what is now northern Oklahoma had countless bison, a main staple of the Pelican Lake people.

Frison says: “Beginning about 3000 years ago, the Late Plains Archaic witnessed the arrival of some of the more sophisticated pedestrian bison hunters in North America. The first group is commonly referred to as Pelican Lake.” (Frison 2007).

I do not know where the approximate center of the Pelican Lake distribution range might be. However with Frison’s description “more sophisticated pedestrian bison hunters in North America”, along with the Pelican Lake points made of exotic lithics from regional collections that I have seen, suggests to me that the Pelican Lake people covered a lot of turf, similar to some of their Paleo ancestors.

I do agree there were other cultures with marked differences in subsistence strategies with look-alike point styles. When these cultures overlap they are nearly impossible to identify when not found in an archaeological context. That is why in my first post to this thread I didn’t say it was a Pelican Lake but said, ”It could just as well be a Pelican Lake point as an Edgewood.”

Thanks for the discussion Matt, as you stated, it is fun to hypothesize about Plains prehistory. I am emailing you a scan of the Creston Point description.

 

[Airborne80]

What a KILLER point!! You will be hooked for life now My first point is still my favorite (Molly knows which one I am referring to ) and I have yet to be able to op it. Have fun and post your finds. I cant wait to see them.

 

[ohioaxeman]

VERY NICE POINT! if i can pick up flakes all day and a point or 2 i`m having a great day. i always carry off all my flakes.

i pick up every flake or piece of flint/chert and take them back to the truck, and usually back to the house. i have pieces in my ashtray, in my toolbox, junkdrawers, a few coat pockets, even in my tacklebox! i remember when me and my brothers were in bed at night and we would scrape pieces of flint together and make sparks. anyways, i pick them all up so i dont have to pick them up again next time!