clay pottery effigy dolls

[downwithrocks]

These clay pottery effigy dolls are an awesome personal find of mine. I have owned them for around 5 years and I have done much research to find out as much as I could about these unique dolls. The results of all that research have lead me to believe these dolls are a one of a kind find. Many people have send me pictures of similar dolls but none exactly like these. I have been told that they date to pre-1600 to 2000 years before present time. There have been dozens of leading experts, from many University’s, museums, galleries, and personal collector's who have collected for over 20 years, look at these dolls. No one can find them documented in any book, or picture of any kind. Everyone who has looked at them is in agreement of the time frame of the dolls. And because of location: East, Tx: thier origin has been debated to be either Caddo ,Quaw Paw, or South American.

The dolls measure around 6 inches tall and 4 inches wide at the widest point and were at one time connected or "hugging". Some people believe that this suggest that they were made as some kind of marriage dolls. They have distinct Caddo facial features but show paint pigment more commonly found in the South American cultures. Other features are what appear to be hoofed feet and one has a raised bump over the heart and the other were the belly button/navel would be.

I was told by a professor of Stephen F. Austin University to insure them for $200,000.00. If you are interested in more information , such as a list of experts and people who have given an opinons on these dolls, or more pictures feel free to email me.

Special Note: Although the dolls show damage all the experts I have spoken to agree that it does not hurt the value of this unquie artifact. I am looking for answers, such as what they are, date, culture, and if the proffessors appraisal is correct. If you think you can help please contact me.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tnmountains]

Congratulations on your finds and welcome to T-Net.
Good luck I am sure someone will be able to help you

 

[downwithrocks]

These were found in Anderson county in East Texas. I am trying to get information. They do have red yellow and black paint pigment. There are two of them. They have never been published. No one can find an example of these effigy dolls/ figures any where. Yes they are insured and no I am not trying to sell them at this time. I started to sell them but am reluctant. I am triying to find that person that knows with out a doubt what these are. Alot of people have made well educated guesses but no one has really been able to help me. I don't know about reds on south american pottery being highly poisonous you might be right. I will have to find out. Thanks now if I could just figure out what they are....

 

[abarnard]

Very interesting, I like to see artifacts like this. It gets my imagination running. I think these artifacts should not be sold. You have something special there. Good luck on figuring out exactly what they are, but I do know that they are amazing.

 

[downwithrocks]

Thanks. I thought I was goning to have a heart attack when I found them. I was out arrowhead hunting in a creek when all of a sundden there is this face staring up at me. I picked up the first one and began to search more carefully, thats when I found the second one. I found other artifacts in that same area such as a nutting stone and pestal. Some small arrowheads and what i think was a grease bowl with some kind of powdery white flour looking stuff presevered inside it. In 12 years of huntng and collecting I can honestly say I have never been more excited about a find.

 

[Tnmountains]

Its really cool. It looks pre-columbian but the face looks native american. The Mayans made a lot of clay effigy dolls. I was talking with a guy the other day that collects s.american and he was telling me about some dolls found in s.america but am thinking he was refering to around the mayan period .A lot of their grave goods were covered in a red dust which is dangerous to handle. I have seen it but its not like what you have.
I would have been excited also with a find like that. Congratulations. When you used the word buyer and prices I assumed you were selling. Hopefully some of the experts on here can help you identify your amazing finds. Congratulations again

 

[downwithrocks]

I caught my mistake. I had made up a template and saved it when I was thinking of selling them. I just copyed and pasted it here. I had to go back and edit. Sorry for the confusion. A friend of mine showed me this site. He said your not allowed to sell here. Only ask for help in identifying and such. So, thats why I am here. There is no evidence of a grave. I dug both sides of the creek. That was one of my first thoughts, too. Thanks agian.

 

[creek astronaut]

i have never seen anything like your artifacts,those are amazing.i would have crapped my pants if i would have found those.thanks for sharing your incredible finds,BANNER FINDS for sure.IMO.

 

[am-ark]

WOW,WOW,WOW,WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.................I AGREE BANNER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[downwithrocks]

Thanks everyone. Here is a pic of the back side of them.

 

[*Molly*]

Can you post bigger pics & close ups for us to see..

Molly.

 

[downwithrocks]

Bare with me I hope these are a better size.... Lets try it.....

 

[downwithrocks]

Okay I think I finally have this resizing thing down. Here are a few more of different angles......

 

[Neanderthal]

First, questions. What is the tempering of the clay? What coloration is the clay? Can you tell what firing method was used? How "homogenous" does the clay appear to be? Are there any deposits present (calcium, lime, etc)?


Second, comments. Damage DOES effect any artifact. Rarity does not always make an artifact worth more money, largely due to the fact that all artifacts are unique in themselves. For instance, I have a single notched hafted scraper still in manufacturing stages - I have never seen another like it, but it's still not worth a hoot. $200K in an incredulous amount and I find that to be completely unrealistic. You would need the item appraised by a credible person in the field, and even then I think you would have a fun time getting an insurance co. to agree. Some of the most infamous pottery specimens ever recovered are even insured for that amount. And yes, I'm very familiar with it.

I have seen many clay "dolls" or figurines, from different cultures. Yours could even be historic and not Native American at all, more information is needed.

 

[downwithrocks]

What is the tempering of the clay? If this means what was mixed with the clay.. It appears to be bone and sand.
What coloration is the clay? yellowish/red clay
Can you tell what firing method was used? Not sure....
How "homogenous" does the clay appear to be? Seems to be dense. I am not sure that anwsers your question.
Are there any deposits present (calcium, lime, etc)? You can see crushed bone was mixed in with the clay.

I am not very educated on the matter my-self. Hence, the reason I am here looking for answers. Here are a list of people who have given thier opinions.

Heritage Galleries
Antique road shows Archaeologist person
Gallant museum
Red River Museum
Arkansas State University Archaeologist department
Steven F Austin University anthropologist department
Identifier Tom Davis
Identifier Whitefeather
Who I consider very knowledgeable of over 20 years of collecting and was associated with Mr. Perino (Carlos black)
My Mentor and collector for over 20 years (John Combs)
Retired Mr . Westbrook - When Arkansas couldn't help they sent me to Mr. Westbrook who had retired a few years before I contacted them he was there professor for 30 years
There are few more Archaeologist and few others .

As I said in my oringinal post. None of these peolpe were able to say "Oh, yeah I know what you got there. Its " whatever these are". " So, I am just looking for more well educated opinions.

I have been a collector for 12 years I understand every artifact is unquie . I understand that that might sound like a lot to insure something for but that was just one persons opinion. My whole collection is insured just in case . It is very easy to insure your personal property and not really that expensive, either.

 

[Neanderthal]

Crap, I had made a very long post and then lost it due to net connection. Basically what I said is this.

The tempering is an odd combination for being North American. Caddo used shell, carbon, grog or clay grit usually and pulverized bone only rarely. Quapaw were much the same, but used shell more than anything. Mississippian types Bell and Neeley's Ferry paste was shell (in different densities) tempered, but used grog, crushed bone, crushed quartz, and other items on rare occasions. They closest types to your area where bone tempering was actually prevalent, is the Leon down in central TX, or Goose Creek plain down in Galveston area. However, the combination of bone and sand was more frequently used over in Mexico, the desert southwest and even further south.

The paint scheme (red, yellow, black), is found typically further south as well. For instance, in Nicaragua (and surrounding areas) red, yellow and black are the primary colors used, but they are in much more refined patterns and done with great delicacy. Your bodies also have hollow bodies, this too isn't nearly as common up north. In Mexico, it's very common to see hollow bodied vessels from the states of Colima, Jalisco, etc. But again, the figurines from there are usually much more well-made. LOL, and before anyone suggests it..NO! cruder does not always mean older, it only means the artist was less skillful or didn't have great materials to work with. The faces on your pieces are very strange. Those almond eyes and wide nose don't really match what you will typically see on most North American Native depictions. That's something that you will see more on European creations, but it does happen down south some.

The fact of the matter is that I doubt anyone will be able to tell you with any great degree of certainty who made those, especially without holding them in hand. They could even be made by historic Chinese or European immigrants, who knows. If I had to make a guess, I would probably say Mexican, but that's only conjecture. If you really have the urge to know more about them and don't mind spending the money, you may want to consider TL dating. At least that will give you a closer time frame.

 

[Pinellas Man]

Whatever they are they are an awesome find!! Thanks for sharing!

 

[downwithrocks]

Thanks Neanderthal and Pinellas Man. Neanderthal you seem like a well educated person. Thanks for all your comments and advice.

 

[Atlantis0077]

Morning,

I am replying to this not because I am an expert on dolls, but because I have seen tons of Caddo pottery and live on the border of LA and TX. I would tend to agree with Neanderthal's take. I dont believe them to be Caddo for several reasons. First Caddo creations normally are more finely crafted than those...especially something that would have most likely been ceremonial. Second firing techniques and mixture are not consistant with what one normally sees in Caddo wares. Thirdly the multi-color paint on the body of the figures...I have seen color of red, black, white and green on caddo Wares....done in a much different style, but not colored like those. If it were not for the fact they are pottery, they appear more to be weathered cast iron with traces of paint remaining. The facial features and hair are kind of odd as well as is the appearance of a defined waist...almost like they are both wearing some type of frock. Also the hollow in them is strange..again more haphazard than usually found in a caddo piece.

All in all a very puzzling find indeed. I would have been equally excited at finding them and hope you can come to a definitive answer as to what they are. All I can offer are some observations as to what they may not be based on my knowledge of the past 30 years. You have a unique find. I wouldn't try and place a definite value on them...insure them for whatever you can swing and feel comfortable with. I would think that in a site such as where these came from there would be other unusual artifacts just waiting to be found. Thanks for posting them. I doubt too many folks have ever seen anything like them before.

Happy Hunting,

Atlantis

 

[downwithrocks]

Thanks, Atlantis for you insight. Most people I have talked to are about the same way as you. Everyone can tell me what they aren't . All they know for sure is that they are a really cool find. And so my search for anwsers contunuies.........