Post an Arrowhead and tell its use (open posting)

[Tnmountains]

Name an arrowhead or tool. Give a time frame. Post a picture and tell us what you can of its many uses. Provide your research links...... Here is an interesting one to start......

Morrow Mountain,Middle Archaic, Hunting and warfare.

Source Book, Prehistoric Indians of the South East. Archeology of Alabama and the Middle South.pg 64 online .
Burials

The burial positions of these individulalls was not the only unusuall thing about them_ all three had met violent deaths. The rib cage of burial 83 an adult male,had been penetrated by three projectile points. One of these was a morrow mountain while the other two had been fragmented upon impact and could not be identified. Burial 84,also an adult male was associated with 7 Morrow Mountain projectiles points. 4 Morrow Mountains were found in the thoracic cavity, 2 Morrow Mountains were firmly imbedded in the spinal column and one Morrow Mountain was found in the mouth cavity. One of the two points found in the spinal column"had entered from the front and loged in the centrum(center part of the vertebra, the other had penetrated from the rear and was embedded between two neural processes.
Burial number 85, a male adolecent had been placed into the burial pit first then a cache of artifacts was placed between the arm and body.Two bone awls from deer ulnas,one biface knife,and two Morrow Mountain projectile points. This individuall also had a projectile point firmly embedded in his spinal column.

Here is the book on line if you want to buy it. Talks a lot about pre-clovis artifacts,, You can read some on line at
http://books.google.com/books?id=kM...esult&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

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[crow12c]

kinda like going to the cival war cematary and diggem up and log their wounds, mabey take a few pics. perhaps pocket a few things before chuckin the dirt back over it, I for one find this kinda info and such as having little to do with relic collecting. sadly some do. its interesting to relic hunters and it gives us a look into their lifes, (somewhat) but a grave of any time-line should never be molested. Im not bashing you my brother, your ideal was cool. Ill find some things I have that are freaky, but I have a therory on them. we all have found that freak peice that dont make sence. there are allotta hunters that dont know that anything over a inch long is not a arrowhead at all. lance tips knifes, anything of size that is really thin was never thrown at anything, knifes. but theres always those that disagree. I like finding points broke in use. you can always tell by the presure breaks, almost fluted like. Ill put up some good kill breaks. later man . crow.

 

[Tnmountains]

kinda like going to the cival war cematary and diggem up and log their wounds, mabey take a few pics. perhaps pocket a few things before chuckin the dirt back over it, I for one find this kinda info and such as having little to do with relic collecting. sadly some do. its interesting to relic hunters and it gives us a look into their lifes, (somewhat) but a grave of any time-line should never be molested. Im not bashing you my brother, your ideal was cool. Ill find some things I have that are freaky, but I have a therory on them. we all have found that freak peice that dont make sence. there are allotta hunters that dont know that anything over a inch long is not a arrowhead at all. lance tips knifes, anything of size that is really thin was never thrown at anything, knifes. but theres always those that disagree. I like finding points broke in use. you can always tell by the presure breaks, almost fluted like. Ill put up some good kill breaks. later man . crow.

No I disagree Crow, Its Something in context from an Archaeological report that give us a true answer on what an item was used for at a particular place in time and a small look into daily life. Its how we or at least I learn. I find this style point. I do not think anyone has the mentality of digging burials and chuckin a few things into their pockets. These reports were done before lake and river impoundments and the information is public. Most these sites are under water and will never see the light of day again and many were moved.
I knew this might be out there for some but the knowledge should not be taboo. The artifacts we collect came from a very diffrent and often violent culture. I am sure they will say the same about us one day,
Look forward to your post and if this post is not appropriate I do not have a problem pulling it down.
Regards
TnMountains

 

[lostcauses]

Well they have dug up civil war burials for what you suggest. They rebury them also.

As for projectile points, well it depends on the method of delivery for length and size. Some were used as both projectile, and knife. As for a basic lance, well such was also used.
With an arrow tip as in bow and arrow you are correct for the most part.
You must remember until fairly modern terms, they all just were arrowheads by the non users of such.

kinda like going to the cival war cematary and diggem up and log their wounds, mabey take a few pics. perhaps pocket a few things before chuckin the dirt back over it, I for one find this kinda info and such as having little to do with relic collecting. sadly some do. its interesting to relic hunters and it gives us a look into their lifes, (somewhat) but a grave of any time-line should never be molested. Im not bashing you my brother, your ideal was cool. Ill find some things I have that are freaky, but I have a therory on them. we all have found that freak peice that dont make sence. there are allotta hunters that dont know that anything over a inch long is not a arrowhead at all. lance tips knifes, anything of size that is really thin was never thrown at anything, knifes. but theres always those that disagree. I like finding points broke in use. you can always tell by the presure breaks, almost fluted like. Ill put up some good kill breaks. later man . crow.

 

[Th3rty7]

kinda like going to the cival war cematary and diggem up and log their wounds, mabey take a few pics. perhaps pocket a few things before chuckin the dirt back over it, I for one find this kinda info and such as having little to do with relic collecting. sadly some do. its interesting to relic hunters and it gives us a look into their lifes, (somewhat) but a grave of any time-line should never be molested. Im not bashing you my brother, your ideal was cool. Ill find some things I have that are freaky, but I have a therory on them. we all have found that freak peice that dont make sence. there are allotta hunters that dont know that anything over a inch long is not a arrowhead at all. lance tips knifes, anything of size that is really thin was never thrown at anything, knifes. but theres always those that disagree. I like finding points broke in use. you can always tell by the presure breaks, almost fluted like. Ill put up some good kill breaks. later man . crow.

Hey crow what about all the thin paleo points found embedded in mastodon bone? How'd they get there? Some well over 5 inches in length. I saw a paperthin crowfield point stuck in an ancient horsebone, the paleo spearpoint was close to 3 inches.

 

[archer66]

I think this is a great idea for a topic and would love to see more posts like TN's first one. I have some nice artifacts that I've found and I'm in the process of trying to learn more about them.

Can anyone point me to a good reference material (I live in northeast Missouri so I would want something pertaining to my area) that spends more time on the uses of points with references that explain HOW it is known what something was used for?? I can look at a point and INFER from it's shape that it might have been used for hunting, or battle, or butchering, or all three but I want to see a reference that shows confirmed knowledge about the use of a point based on the context in which they have been found. That's the one thing missing in my opinion in books like the one by Overstreet....a pretty nice key for identification but very little about uses and context in which they have been found.

 

[uniface]

A family motto : " Speak the truth, and shame the devil." Whenever you just come out and tell it like it is, all kinds of BS games dry up and blow away.

Fresh air and sunlight are the best disinfectants.

An unsettlingly high proportion of burials show not only violent deaths, but scalping and trophy mutilation (like forearms cut off for trophies). And distasteful as it may be, cannibalism was far from rare as well.

The grave thing is well and good insofar as I wouldn't knowingly disturb one. But before we get too carried away with it, it might not hurt to note that, oftentimes, whenever those who came before us were digging a trash pit and encountered the skull of a burial, they'd just pitch it.

You may have noticed Rod Peck's insightful observation in the Hardaway culture site account link posted here not long ago : that wherever you find Clovis, you don't find Hardaway. And vice versa. That simple fact speaks volumes. Separate neighborhoods and mutual avoidance (assuming no outright warfare).

Reality is always more disturbing than we might like. But, again IMHO, it's way better than cartoons instead of it.

 

[crow12c]

the mastodon rolled over on the poor dude while he was holding his knife and got it stuck.lol! its a common sense therory, that something that is very thin and very likley to break easy, would be a waste of fletching to the removable top shaft of the lance. this did take a little time to do, and you'd think there knowledge that a 2 ton beast needs to be shanked with something that aint just gonna pop into peices. it be like using a 22 cal to bear hunt. when a 50 cal was avalable. I am sure there are thin blades stuck in such. but In my world , thin blades were used as knifes, the knife would of been the most used tool he had, it just makes more sense for delicate flint to be used by the hand for cuttin. as for grave diggin for any reason regardless. its wrong. If I wanna know what your great great grandmother was wearin at her burrial. does my "interest" gives me the ok to do it? it's ok man we will never see eye to eye on this. thats cool, I wouldnt want to be around a human that agreed with everything i thought. and again the thin blade thing is really just a good common sense theory, thats all. we were not here 10k years ago to say one way or the other. we can only speculate for the most part. thats where we use the common sense thing. its more likley than not. unless perhaps man then did not have brains enough to use stronger objects for this kinda use? Id say they had it figured out though.

 

[Airborne80]

I like this post and the dialog it has sparked. look... if we all agreed on everything, we would be Liberals hahahahaha... I mean bored! I am happy that you chose the Morrow Mountain, as I have a number of them and some are pretty large and would be of good use in combat.

As for the graves...... come on now. We all agree that it would be sick and wrong to dig in any grave if not necessary. But if they were coincidently unearthed due to flood or construction, of course most (me for sure) would want to take a look prior to reburial. They are like time casuals and most of us are interested in all of the details of life (and death) back then. No need to feel guilty...we are humans and sometimes look in the direction of a car accident. That does not mean that we enjoy the carnage. If the history Chanel was going to air a show where they put a robotic camera into the U.S.S. Arizona..... I know that I would be watching. I would watch with reverence and respect and also with curiosity. My Grandfather was on the U.S.S. West Virginia (sitting right next to the Arizona), and I know that he would understand and not be insulted by my wanting to see and learn. In fact... when they raised the West Virginia, they removed his foot locker and I have all of his belongings on display in a glass table. Am I a sicko? Maybe... but not because of that.

 

[Tnmountains]

the mastodon rolled over on the poor dude while he was holding his knife and got it stuck.lol! its a common sense therory, that something that is very thin and very likley to break easy, would be a waste of fletching to the removable top shaft of the lance. this did take a little time to do, and you'd think there knowledge that a 2 ton beast needs to be shanked with something that aint just gonna pop into peices. it be like using a 22 cal to bear hunt. when a 50 cal was avalable. I am sure there are thin blades stuck in such. but In my world , thin blades were used as knifes, the knife would of been the most used tool he had, it just makes more sense for delicate flint to be used by the hand for cuttin. as for grave diggin for any reason regardless. its wrong. If I wanna know what your great great grandmother was wearin at her burrial. does my "interest" gives me the ok to do it? it's ok man we will never see eye to eye on this. thats cool, I wouldnt want to be around a human that agreed with everything i thought. and again the thin blade thing is really just a good common sense theory, thats all. we were not here 10k years ago to say one way or the other. we can only speculate for the most part. thats where we use the common sense thing. its more likley than not. unless perhaps man then did not have brains enough to use stronger objects for this kinda use? Id say they had it figured out though.

It was all about wounding and tracking, bleeding out ,exhauston ,death on large game. No death blows here or very few. If you could wound well and lethal, you had a kill. You do not hunt I guess. No one is digging up any great grandmotherswe know what she was wearing already,,. Relax.

 

[Tnmountains]

I like this post and the dialog it has sparked. look... if we all agreed on everything, we would be Liberals hahahahaha... I mean bored! I am happy that you chose the Morrow Mountain, as I have a number of them and some are pretty large and would be of good use in combat.

As for the graves

I look at a Morrow mountain with reverance and awe knowing more. There are thousand of reports out by colleges avail to you to learn all aspects or most from what we find laying on the ground. Each state college has their own press most times.
I am humbled by your grandfather,

 

[Th3rty7]

the mastodon rolled over on the poor dude while he was holding his knife and got it stuck.lol! its a common sense therory, that something that is very thin and very likley to break easy, would be a waste of fletching to the removable top shaft of the lance. this did take a little time to do, and you'd think there knowledge that a 2 ton beast needs to be shanked with something that aint just gonna pop into peices. it be like using a 22 cal to bear hunt. when a 50 cal was avalable. I am sure there are thin blades stuck in such. but In my world , thin blades were used as knifes, the knife would of been the most used tool he had, it just makes more sense for delicate flint to be used by the hand for cuttin. as for grave diggin for any reason regardless. its wrong. If I wanna know what your great great grandmother was wearin at her burrial. does my "interest" gives me the ok to do it? it's ok man we will never see eye to eye on this. thats cool, I wouldnt want to be around a human that agreed with everything i thought. and again the thin blade thing is really just a good common sense theory, thats all. we were not here 10k years ago to say one way or the other. we can only speculate for the most part. thats where we use the common sense thing. its more likley than not. unless perhaps man then did not have brains enough to use stronger objects for this kinda use? Id say they had it figured out though.

There's a reason they traveled hundreds of miles to find flint, chert, jasper, quartz materials suitable for making tools and weapons. On the hardness scale flint is a 7, harder than most steel on knives we use today. Even a flake of flint is extremely hard to snap with your hands. That's why they chose flint because it's really hard and didn't break easy. Even a very thin projectile point could easily penetrate skin, muscle, bone, etc, the thinner the better in many cases, thin enough to penetrate deep into their target, yet hard enough to withstand impact and deliver a critical strike. Flint isn't delicate, it's a very hard material, delicate would be talc, gypsum, calcite, etc.

 

[Airborne80]

I like this post and the dialog it has sparked. look... if we all agreed on everything, we would be Liberals hahahahaha... I mean bored! I am happy that you chose the Morrow Mountain, as I have a number of them and some are pretty large and would be of good use in combat.

As for the graves

I look at a Morrow mountain with reverance and awe knowing more. There are thousand of reports out by colleges avail to you to learn all aspects or most from what we find laying on the ground. Each state college has their own press most times.
I am humbled by your grandfather,

I have to thank Molly for introducing me to the Morrow Mountain. It was one of the first few points that I found when I started. I will follow your advise and tap the information in the collages. Thats a great idea!

As for my Grandpa... thanks brother. All of those folks who served (and the ones who have since and now) deserve our respect. By the way... I know what Grandpa is wearing in his grave

 

[Tnmountains]

Dalton Hardaway from N.Texas
Early Archaic period, Atlatl spear thrower,large Game Deer
Source: Antonio J Waring Archaeological Laboratory

 

[crow12c]

It amazes me just how much info we all have on humans that lived 10-12k years ago. I wonder how much of modern mans info or opions are even close to reality? we can read very old writings (bible, ect) and learn from what was recorded, but when it comes to man on this continent, we have nothing. its all I bet or I think. I understand your lets wound the beast and follow it round for days till it falls.....I have hunted since mid 60's. and again common sense, learn what it takes to kill your prey. the faster the better. right? do you think they wanted to wait vs droppin their game fast? If some ones huntin deer and takes a shot thats not "drop on spot" im my opion shouldnt be in the wood with a gun. and you can kill a deer instantly. why make a wound that only slows it down? another theory that has no common sense. these people were the top notch hunters of the world. In my opion they did not waste their time and tools by non lethal wounds and then follow large beast until they bleed to death. if you were close up to a large beast today, and wanted to kill it. would you take a head shot or shoot it in the leg? they understood the path to death of these beast, why choose to take the senic route?? getter done! flint is sharper than steel, but I can slap a flint blade against a rock and its over. my steel knife wouldnt break. ive played with flint before. its not as durable as our steel. they chose it because they had little choice. how fast could a man run 10k years ago? common sense would say bout as fast as man today. some things just dont change much.

 

[*Molly*]

I like this post and the dialog it has sparked. look... if we all agreed on everything, we would be Liberals hahahahaha... I mean bored! I am happy that you chose the Morrow Mountain, as I have a number of them and some are pretty large and would be of good use in combat.

As for the graves

I look at a Morrow mountain with reverance and awe knowing more. There are thousand of reports out by colleges avail to you to learn all aspects or most from what we find laying on the ground. Each state college has their own press most times.
I am humbled by your grandfather,

I have to thank Molly for introducing me to the Morrow Mountain. It was one of the first few points that I found when I started. I will follow your advise and tap the information in the collages. Thats a great idea!

As for my Grandpa... thanks brother. All of those folks who served (and the ones who have since and now) deserve our respect. By the way... I know what Grandpa is wearing in his grave

Thankyou Airborne. It's very kind of you to say.
This is a very interesting thread, thanks TN.

Molly.

 

[creek astronaut]

It amazes me just how much info we all have on humans that lived 10-12k years ago. I wonder how much of modern mans info or opions are even close to reality? we can read very old writings (bible, ect) and learn from what was recorded, but when it comes to man on this continent, we have nothing. its all I bet or I think. I understand your lets wound the beast and follow it round for days till it falls.....I have hunted since mid 60's. and again common sense, learn what it takes to kill your prey. the faster the better. right? do you think they wanted to wait vs droppin their game fast? If some ones huntin deer and takes a shot thats not "drop on spot" im my opion shouldnt be in the wood with a gun. and you can kill a deer instantly. why make a wound that only slows it down? another theory that has no common sense. these people were the top notch hunters of the world. In my opion they did not waste their time and tools by non lethal wounds and then follow large beast until they bleed to death. if you were close up to a large beast today, and wanted to kill it. would you take a head shot or shoot it in the leg? they understood the path to death of these beast, why choose to take the senic route?? getter done! flint is sharper than steel, but I can slap a flint blade against a rock and its over. my steel knife wouldnt break. ive played with flint before. its not as durable as our steel. they chose it because they had little choice. how fast could a man run 10k years ago? common sense would say bout as fast as man today. some things just dont change much.

things are much different now than they were 10000 years ago.lol.they didnt have a gun to take a head shot with,they didnt have steel that is more durable than flint,so they did use what was best at the time.as far as killing a mastadon it would take several kill shots with any weapon,and if you had a clan to feed, so what if it took a few hours to bleed out a mastadon??better than starving to death,and you would probably have enough meat to last a long time.and their is evidence that they killed mastodons with several over an inch long projectile points,more like 3 to 5 inches in length.as a matter of fact a mastadon was found in my neck of the woods that had several paleo lances inbedded it.most of us would be dead not long after being dropped off in 10000 b.c.you had to be smarter not faster in 10000 b.c.so "drop on the spot" was not an option most of the time,like if you were in the woods today.lol.great thread tn mts,i will get in on the thread later with some pics.

 

[GL]

My Folsom point.
Paleo Fluted Lanceolate, 12000-9000 B.P. Associated with bison and mammoth.

The Folsom Point, discovered near Folsom, New Mexico, in 1927, was crafted from flint some 10 thousand years ago. Discovered on a joint expedition by archaeologists from the American Museum of Natural History and the Denver Museum of Natural History, this spear point stands among the most important archaeological finds ever made on this continent.

This single point settled a longstanding difference of opinion about when the first humans arrived in what we now call North America. Many believed the first Native American cultures to be no more than 2 or 3 thousand years old, while others believed that they were thousands of years older than that. With the discovery of the Folsom Point, which was embedded in the bones of a bison known to have been extinct for 10 thousand years, the disagreement was resolved: the point was incontrovertible evidence that there were humans here as early as the Ice Age. The real Folsom Point is displayed in a cast of the bones in which it was embedded, re-creating the way this momentous discovery appeared to members of the expedition.

Flintwork is the earliest American art known to archaeologists. In a testament to its sophistication, it took modern archaeologists and flint collectors many years to duplicate the technique used to produce the beautifully crafted Folsom Point, and others like it.
AMNH website

 

[lostcauses]

"to be shanked with something that aint just gonna pop into peices."

Pop into parts, will do more damage if the target is moving around.
And yes a lance could be used to deliver final killing blow. Yet it is safer to be clear of a wounded target to finish it.
Still even if a lance tip it is a projectile point.

 

[GL]

Or use the weapons to hurt the animal and herd it over a cliff or into a canyon so they could drop rocks on it.