Kirk Snapped Base or Kirk Broke Base

[Tnmountains]

Robert Overstreet Typed this point as a snapped base point. It has been "hotly" (understatement) debated by hunters and collectors since being published. I am going to show 2 examples I found in almost the exact same area if not the same area that he hunted here in Tennessee. Most examples he shows are from Tennessee. One I am showing I dug from a rock shelter the other was from an open air site. In one of his books his description on this type is as follows.

9000 to 6000 bp. Location : Southeastern to Eastern States. Description: A medium to large size,usually serrated blade with long tangs and a base that has been snapped or fractured off. The shoulders are also fractured on some examples. This proves that the fracturing was intentional as in Decatur and other types.

I do not know if it is a true type or just a broken Kirk. The examples I have show the same patina at the break or snap as the rest of the point and seems that the break or snap was done during manufacture. The quality of the knapping is very skilled though the pictures may not show it.

So is it broke or snapped? If snapped why? Feel free to post any like examples and give your opinions on what they were doing 11,000 years ago. Be nice to see other like examples for comparison.
Thanks !!





2nd knife/point

 

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[NC field hunter]

I defiantly see why it would be called a "snapped base" so, the implication is, these points are made like this? I have seen these before. I thought they were damaged. That isn't the case? Or is that the argument?

 

[GatorBoy]

It seems to me That these are actually Hafted knife blades.. correct? So then we need to look at the fact that the stress on the base area would be different than that of a projectile. The fact that Overstreet describe many examples having shoulder damage leads me to believe that this is just damage from someone leaning downward with force to cut or even saw through tough material. Putting considerable pressure on that point until some actually break also damaging the shoulders on some of them most likely from the handle. I can see the guy falling forward into the carcass when it unexpectedly broke . Just my opinion.

 

[rock]

I have seen examples if these type of snapped base points in person also. I guess my thoughts on these is why couldnt there be 2 types? One with a stem and one without. I found a type like this one this yr. Everyone that looks at it says, quote that is nice but it looks like the stem is broken. Well when they look at the stem they see it is made this way. They said then well that is a Archaic Knife. So far there is no name for mine in a book. I dont believe it is a Kirk though. It still shows the base with the same type of design.

 

[rock]

.......

 

[Tnmountains]

I defiantly see why it would be called a "snapped base" so, the implication is, these points are made like this? I have seen these before. I thought they were damaged. That isn't the case? Or is that the argument?

The argument has always been that they are broken at the base and not snapped on purpose. Overstreet says that they are snapped at the base on purpose. What would be the purpose in snapping off a base ?

 

[Tnmountains]

It seems to me That these are actually Hafted knife blades.. correct? So then we need to look at the fact that the stress on the base area would be different than that of a projectile. The fact that Overstreet describe many examples having shoulder damage leads me to believe that this is just damage from someone leaning downward with force to cut or even saw through tough material. Putting considerable pressure on that point until some actually break also damaging the shoulders on some of them most likely from the handle. I can see the guy falling forward into the carcass when it unexpectedly broke . Just my opinion.

Yes you are right they are knifes Gator. I think you are on it...... and maybe they were thinking this. Ok if we snap the base and leave it like that when we haft the knife a heavy base will be stronger than a thin base and less likely to break or slip back into the haft? lol. I am reaching.

 

[NC field hunter]

The argument has always been that they are broken at the base and not snapped on purpose. Overstreet says that they are snapped at the base on purpose. What would be the purpose in snapping off a base ?

Not sure of the purpose? The "break" looks pretty clean and the patina is matched. I suppose if numbers of these have popped up through out the years with the same uniformed qualities, it's hard to deny their existence. I noticed on yours that the "ears" seem to be snapped off evenly with the base. It's out of my league. I can only go on what I see here.

 

[GatorBoy]

Yes you are right they are knifes Gator. So what about this and maybe they were thinking this. Ok if we snap the base and leave it like that when we haft the knife a heavy base will be stronger than a thin base and less likely to break or slip back into the haft? lol. I am reaching.

That should be true... and blades were made for that purpose and in that way. It seems more probable that these could have easily been hafted in a slightly different way after the initial break. other than that the extra work in the base area would be senseless. the notches would not have been necessary.

 

[Tnmountains]

Overstreet states that the tangs and shoulders will be fractured as well. There is very strong argument against these being a "type". I hope that we can see other examples posted. Gator you have pictures of knifes hafted right? What was hafting like say 9000 years ago? Maybe more primitive .

 

[GatorBoy]

I never gave this theory alot of thought. It just seemed like overthinking the obvious to me. I know you work with some archaeologists from time to time as well.. they have a tendency to do that. I.m.o. I would like to see more examples.

 

[NC field hunter]

I never gave this theory alot of thought. It just seemed like overthinking the obvious to me. I know you work with some archaeologists from time to time as well.. they have a tendency to do that. I.m.o. I would like to see more examples.

What is your personal view Gator? Two types? I don't even have a personal view honestly.

 

[GatorBoy]

I think I'm just going to go With what seems more logical. I think it's just a damaged point. Otherwise I have several "snap base" archaic stemmed points........... and they're just broken.

 

[Tnmountains]

Archeologist tend to have to study to broad of a range of items sometimes. It is hard for them to find time in their lives for everything. That is why they come here as guest and see what hunters and collectors think and find. It is a two way "public" street. Give and take.

 

[GatorBoy]

Such is life

 

[NC field hunter]

Who is Overstreet? Is he an archeologist?

 

[GatorBoy]

He is the author Of one of the most widely used projectile point typology guide books in the United States.

 

[chiefbigbs]

Overstreet price guide books
1232 pages of pictures/set up by area

 

[chiefbigbs]

here
http://http://www.amazon.com/Official-Overstreet-Identification-Arrowheads-Arrowhead/dp/0375723455

 

[Tnmountains]

Who is Robert M. Overstreet? | www.arrowheads.com

He hunted with Archie Lecroy and worked with my uncle at Bowater.