Digging overhangs, perplexing issues!?!

[Mad Martigan]

Howdy guys I've been digging for Indian artifacts for a few years now off and on and Id like to start by saying that the cliffs I dig are on property that is gonna be destroyed by surface mining...so I'm actually saving the artifacts rather than destroying them. I do have many questions that im hoping someone on here can answer.
1) In some cliffs I have found arrowheads on the surface but when i dig down i barely find any flint and no points as of yet, why?
2) How do you know when your deep enough? I have found arrowheads and when i keep on digging down I find charcoal, does the charcoal infer that im still not deep enough?
3) Ive heard that the black and sometimes orange color on the tops of Indian shelters is from years of smoke is this true?
4) Are paleo points usually gonna be where other indian relics are just deeper?
5) How does indian material like charcoal,flint celts settle over time I mean is the heavier stuff gonna be deeper or what?
6) Where did Indians like to bury their dead in the mountains? Ive heard they did it on ridge lines facing the east is this true?
7) How can you spot an indian grave in a hill region like south eastern Ky, where do you look?
8) Finally and this is the most perplexing issue for me, how do I spot an indian camp that wasnt under a cliff? I have no idea how to even start to look for that?

Thanks hope to get some good answers, Adam

 

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[Tnmountains]

1.a If you have permission from the land owner proceed to section (1)
1. Possibly lack of use
2. Dig past charcoal and flint to reach bottom of habitation level
3.Not really. Some can have some stain but most likely mineral leaching thru. If they got a ceiling to hot it could collapse on them.
4. Yes
5.No they do not sink especially in a dry environment. They may settle and pack in over thousands of years
6. Never heard of or seen burials in the mtns. I imagine in an old rotted out root ball. What ever was quickest to get it in the ground. Most shelters were just used for a month or so and not a wintering area up high it was to cold.
7. I have no idea. It is against the law to disturb graves of any sort.
8. Most habitation in the mtns were for nut gathering activity in the fall. It was a yearly journey for a food that could be stored.

Hope this helps Adam. Just make sure you have the right permissions as with any hobby and good luck.

 

[Mad Martigan]

You said dig past the charcoal and flint to habitation level? So your saying that their probably is stuff beyond the flint shavings and charcoal? How deep is paleo points usually found?

 

[Tnmountains]

Well if you are past the debri I would say you are at the bottom when no more stuff appears. It may be thin and spotty. Not all shelters were used and the chances of it having Paleo would be rare unless it was lower in the valley by water but you never know. Paleo seemed to follow their next meal is my guess. But much comes from the great state of Kentucky.

 

[Get-the-point]

Adam, the questions you are asking are questions that cause controversy in our hobby. First and foremost make sure it is private land with gained permission. Second graves to all of us here on this forum are off limits and why we really never speak of them here. It's the law and morally and ethically incorrect to touch. I would hope anyone caught disturbing a grave gets serious jail time. It is not right. So Tn put it lightly to you, but also stated that it was against the law. Knowing Tn here, I could tell by his reply that he was being truthful with you, but at the same time being cautious with his answer as well, as grave talk is the unspoken no no here......................GTP

 

[Mad Martigan]

I'm just a college student worrying about preserving my heritage and helping the community, a history buff and an aspiring archaeologist applying for a masters , just like more iformation on the natives of my area..I'm not and don't intend to loot graves or hurt any natural resource, and id very much like to post and ask questions without being questioned

 

[Tnmountains]

I'm just a college student worrying about preserving my heritage and helping the community, a history buff and an aspiring archaeologist applying for a masters , just like more iformation on the natives of my area..I'm not and don't intend to loot graves or hurt any natural resource, and id very much like to post and ask questions without being questioned

We are glad to have you and that is how you learn. We are 'Always learning" here and if you do not ask questions it is hard to learn. We may not have all the answers but we will try to help you all we can. Do not hesitate to post we welcome new members. I look forward to seeing what you find. Have you found any flint on the drip line yet? You can also search old post here on Rock Shelters and see many fun adventures. I have hunted many I have on land leased and with land owners.This is not the best one I have been on but I liked it for it's size. I still have this one actually.

 

[GatorBoy]

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[GatorBoy]

Adam, the questions you are asking are questions that cause controversy in our hobby. First and foremost make sure it is private land with gained permission. Second graves to all of us here on this forum are off limits and why we really never speak of them here. It's the law and morally and ethically incorrect to touch. I would hope anyone caught disturbing a grave gets serious jail time. It is not right. So Tn put it lightly to you, but also stated that it was against the law. Knowing Tn here, I could tell by his reply that he was being truthful with you, but at the same time being cautious with his answer as well, as grave talk is the unspoken no no here......................GTP

...

 

[1320]

Hey Adam, I have some insight on your questions:

First of all, don't worry about asking questions about burials, it's a legitimate question. It does come across as an odd question when you mention digging in the same thread. Not to worry, I don't think you need be admonished or reminded about burials and/or permissions.

1. If you dig enough shelters in your area, you will see a pattern develop regarding depth of artifacts. Erosion can bury and rebury artifacts over the span of thousands of years.
Mother nature is very capable of "layer" the artifacts. They are where they are.

2. Deep enough? That's a tough one. Again, the answer will come to you after you dig several shelters. Some shelters are a few inches deep, others...several feet. Don't quote me on this but I think the Meadowcroft shelter is giving up artifacts at 12 feet. I used to dig until I ran out of flint. One day out of sheer curiousity, I just started digging a hole to see how far I could get before I hit the shelter floor. About three feet later, I got into a massive debitage deposit and discovered a new occupation level. That three feet of sand runs the entire length of the shelter and is completely void of flint. I wouldn't let charcoal make any decisions for me as the smaller bits of it will leach down several inches past debitage.

3. Black and orange can sometimes be evidence of fires but not often. Saltpeter that leeches out will turn black. If your shelters have sandstone pebbles, look for burn marks on them. The saltpeter leeching doesn't seem to stain the pebbles. I don't think many fires were built inside of shelters because the smoke will drive you out. The shelters I see have overhangs that are 20 feet and higher and smoke simply won't stain a rock wall that high. Most of the fire pits that I see are at the front of the shelter.

4. Chances are that you won't find a Paleo point in a Kentucky rock shelter. They are only a handful of documented Kentucky Paleo's that came from rock shelters. The majority of them are found along major river channels. Areas that have rock shelters AND a major waterway are about the only places (Menifee's Red River Gorge) (Somerset, KY).

5. Rock shelters are "exempt" from the sinking effect. There is no cycle of upheaval caused by freezes and thaws. Erosion of the rock shelter itself normally determines the depth of the artifacts. Some shelters erode faster than others....take notes on wind direction when you're digging...a pattern will emerge.

6. Most of the rock shelter Natives creamated their dead. The ones that were buried were either women or children. Most burials are located against a wall, under a crevice or between two large rocks. Kentucky did have a culture that buried their dead in rock "boxes". You can find info on them by searching for "box grave people of Kentucky." I think that burials overlooking creeks and facing eastward are fairytales, there's no evidence to support it. Speaking of direction, don't believe for a minute that a rock shelter has to face east or south before it would have been used.

7. Some post contact graves might be marked but for the most part, mounds are about the only sign post of burials that we have in Kentucky. Ironically, the mounds blend into the surrounding environment very well. Most are just mistaken for a hill.

8. The only way to "spot" a camp is usually by means of debitage. Some folks I know can just look at a stretch of land and instinctively know where a campsite would have been. I guess this comes from years and years of finding artifacts while maintaining a subconcious mental template of where they have hunted.

One thing is certain, mankind has inhibited your area for thousands of years. It is impossible to step your foot down on any piece of dirt and think that no man has ever stepped there before...he has covered every inch.

 

[1320]

http://www.uky.edu/OtherOrgs/KPS/books/funkwebb/funkwebbch09.pdf

 

[GMD52]

I know of 2 rock shelters here along the shores of Lake Champlain, one real close to my home. I could be wrong in this assumption, but think the reason for the points being found on the surface is that these locations were usually itinerant shelters,and not permanent camps. I have found here that the majority of flakes, and point reminents are found in various workshops, found around chert or quartz outcrops. Hope this observation helps.

 

[Diggin-N-Dumps]

Adam, the questions you are asking are questions that cause controversy in our hobby. First and foremost make sure it is private land with gained permission. Second graves to all of us here on this forum are off limits and why we really never speak of them here. It's the law and morally and ethically incorrect to touch. I would hope anyone caught disturbing a grave gets serious jail time. It is not right. So Tn put it lightly to you, but also stated that it was against the law. Knowing Tn here, I could tell by his reply that he was being truthful with you, but at the same time being cautious with his answer as well, as grave talk is the unspoken no no here......................GTP

1. Where Did he say anything on his post about "Disturbing Grave Sites"

He asked how to spot them, Maybe he was asking to make sure he DOESNT disturb a grave site.

It amazes me on the attitudes from simply asking questions on this section of the forum

 

[J bone]

Howdy guys I've been digging for Indian artifacts for a few years now off and on and Id like to start by saying that the cliffs I dig are on property that is gonna be destroyed by surface mining...so I'm actually saving the artifacts rather than destroying them. I do have many questions that im hoping someone on here can answer.
1) In some cliffs I have found arrowheads on the surface but when i dig down i barely find any flint and no points as of yet, why?
2) How do you know when your deep enough? I have found arrowheads and when i keep on digging down I find charcoal, does the charcoal infer that im still not deep enough?
3) Ive heard that the black and sometimes orange color on the tops of Indian shelters is from years of smoke is this true?
4) Are paleo points usually gonna be where other indian relics are just deeper?
5) How does indian material like charcoal,flint celts settle over time I mean is the heavier stuff gonna be deeper or what?
6) Where did Indians like to bury their dead in the mountains? Ive heard they did it on ridge lines facing the east is this true?
7) How can you spot an indian grave in a hill region like south eastern Ky, where do you look?
8) Finally and this is the most perplexing issue for me, how do I spot an indian camp that wasnt under a cliff? I have no idea how to even start to look for that?

Thanks hope to get some good answers, Adam

Every inch you dig past the top soil is about 400 years per inch .. depth really depends they can be deep because they buried stuff also.. you should find crude woodland stemmed points in the first 12 inches from the grass /top of earth ... to find old paleo you should be on very high land and away from old glacier plains.. where you see a mound in the bottoms there was usually a village on the surrounding hills buy a creek general rule of thumb is do not dig on the east side of the hill that was usually burial sites...when your dealing with a cliff erosion and heavy rain cause flood water to dig trenches to the clay that the stone traveled down and got hung up in the roots debris ect.. this happened over the years from them living on top of the bluffs ... every time Era had a certain style or way they did things such as point style, gringing, flint knapping, 101 things have to match up and you can research the time periods and point style such as dove tail, clovis , graham cave ect.. good luck

 

[monsterrack]

Tn Mnt is giving good advice. If this land is going by the way of strip mining , if you think you have located a grave call in the state and the mining will be stopped till they can do a survey, also giving something like that to the state will go along way for you later down the road since it is your study course. Good Luck an welcome to T-net