New member / West Virginia

guitar1580

Tenderfoot
Jun 20, 2013
8
9
West Virginia
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Hi all. New member here who ran onto the treasurenet site while helping my friend look up info on an amazing collection of artifacts he just acquired. We live along the Ohio River in the midst of "mound builder" country. A little north of the very large Grave Creek Mound,

WVDCH*Grave Creek Mound Archaeological Complex

and a little west of Meadowcroft Rockshelter.

Heinz History Center - Meadowcroft

Needless to say, we're in an area which was quite busy, for thousands of years. The Meadowcroft rockshelter site actually caused history books to be re-written, with the finding of items older then previously found in North America.

There were actually at one time a couple of smaller mounds, no longer in existence, within walking distance from where we live, and that is the general area where these artifacts were found, by friends of my friend's family, up and down the river where some large gardens used to get plowed. I had posted a couple of pics in the "big boys" thread, and will include many more here. My friend is in charge of selling the items for his wife's elderly friend who needs the money. I hate to see the collection get broken up, and feel that it should remain in our area, but there is no way I'd be able to afford to buy it, although I may get some items for helping them out, and am going to try to buy what I can afford before it gets sold as a collection.

I've gotten the name of an archaeologist from a university near Meadowcroft, but am having a hard time getting in touch during the summer. My friend's sons have also spoken to some "dealers" and "collectors" who have some books, but I've cautioned him about dealers who will offer less than true value, so that they may turn a profit. The items have not been professionally authenticated yet, but my friends know the deceased folks who collected them, and know that they came from our general neighborhood. My friend started out not wanting to put too much time into the project, but his sons and myself are getting him to take his time to find out what he really has.

There are approx 20+ frames, with an average of 40 to 70 arrowheads in each, a 2 hole slate gorget, two dovetail spearheads which are nearly 10" in length, some tomahawk / ax heads which are nearly perfect, some hammerstones, and other various items. As I looked up items online, and ebay sold auctions, I began to realize that much of the stuff I found was no where near as nice as many of the items in this collection. It's really beginning to blow my friend's and my minds.

That's the basic story. I'm here to show some pics, and to look for any info concerning some ages, values, etc... and to see if any of the arrowheads in particular stand out as exceptional, rare, etc. Some pieces look very unusual to me. The frames are numbered for reference (although some are upside down). Any info would be greatly appreciated, and I'm certain that many true collectors here will appreciate seeing these items.

I'm not sure how many pics will fit per post, so I may do several posts to get them all on here. I've very much hoping to hear from some knowledgeable folks.

JT

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guitar1580

Tenderfoot
Jun 20, 2013
8
9
West Virginia
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
These are the axe heads, the gorget, and box of misc. items. To illustrate how little we know, my friend first thought the gorget was a rifle stock butt plate, and it looked nearly machine made to me. At first, we set it off to the side, thinking it didn't even go with the collection, until he said one of the collector's wife's eyes nearly bugged out as she clutched it near her heart and nearly went into tears. When he called me over to take the pic of it, he said "bring your camera over, you're not gonna believe it".

I want one of the axe heads badly, but don't think I'm going to be able to afford one. The one in the top of the pic is nearly perfect.

JT

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The Grim Reaper

Gold Member
Apr 3, 2008
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Welcome to T-Net guitar1580.

I've got a couple things to say about that collection that you may not like, but I'm not trying to be an ass or a jerk. I'm just trying to help you and your friend out. I have been collecting for 48 years so I'm not a rookie at this.

First, I need to see pictures of the sides of the large Doves in both tray #19 and tray #11, but I am certain both are repros and are what are referred to as Gray Ghosts. These were machine made from cut slabs of Flint back in the 40's and were very popular with collectors of that era. They are still very collectable and usually still bring a decent price and most will sell for around $10 to $15 an inch. I would be willing to bet if you look at them from the side they are the same exact thickness from the base to the tip and that would mean they are made from a sawn slab of Flint.

http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/grayghostpage1.htm

Second, I'm sure all of those Points have a sentimental value to the family, but to be honest they are mostly common field pieces with the exception of a few and are only worth $15 to $20 each and most folks won't pay that much each for an entire tray. The Gorget looks fine from what I can see in those two pictures and is the highest money piece in the bunch if it is indeed a good piece. The two Axes on the bottom look good too, but the one with the groove in the center is likely a repro as well.

Don't waste your time showing them to an archaeologist. Most of them don't know their butt from a hole in the ground when it comes to artifacts. Try to find an avid collector in your area and have them look at them for you.
 

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guitar1580

Tenderfoot
Jun 20, 2013
8
9
West Virginia
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Thanks folks. Thx Reaper ... I don't consider you being a jerk at all. I looked to the forums / message boards for good true info., good or bad, because I always get good info from the forums I belong to which are associated with other hobbies I have.

I thought the long ones looked too good to be true also. I'm sure the fellow found many of the smaller ones in the huge fields which got plowed near us, but if he was that much into collecting, it would seem very possible that he may have picked up the long ones while possibly out West or somewhere on vacation ... whether he knew they were repros or not.

You mentioned that the field points are pretty normal, "with the exception of a few". If you have time, it would be great if you could point out which ones may stand out, and why. The actual lady who my friend is selling these for is upon hard economic times, and he's really just trying to get the most he can for her.

I really thought the archaeologist would be able to provide me with some good info. The Dr. from Meadowcroft Rockshelter who referred me to the one at the university said that he probably wouldn't get into values, but that he would be able to give me info about age, period, etc.

Thanks again.

JT
 

The Grim Reaper

Gold Member
Apr 3, 2008
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The two Gray Ghosts I wouldn't take any less than $150 each for them and if you find someone who collects them you might get a little more.

The black Basal Notch Point in the upper right corner of tray #19 could easily fetch $150 or above.

The two large Points in the lower corners of the same tray are $50 to $75 pieces each.

In tray #11 the large Side Notch Point in the lower right corner is a fine example of an Early Archaic type and could bring as high as $200 to someone that wanted it bad enough. $150 would be a reasonable price though.

The large Stemmed Point in the opposite corner is at least a $50 to $75 Point.

The three Points in between those two are easily $35 to $50 each.

In tray #9 the Bi Pointed Knife is a $50 to $75 piece.

In tray #17 the large Corner Notch in the middle is a nice piece and I would ask at least $75 for it. The Stillwell in the lower right corner of the same tray is a $75 to $100 piece. Other than those I mentioned the rest seem to be fairly common Point types.

How big is the Gorget? I have seen some go at auction for as little as $100 and as high as $500 or more depending on material and provenance. The Axes are the same. I have bought Axes for $35 at some auctions and them seen very similar ones go for $200 plus at others.

Hope this helps you.
 

larson1951

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Apr 8, 2009
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i thought those two first big ones were gray ghosts also
i just don't know as much as reaper
still that is an awful lot of points and blades hundreds of em'
 

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rock

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Aug 25, 2012
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I wouldnt pull the trigger so fast on the ax heads either. None of them look correct to me. The material the base from the notch back and the polish is way too shinny on them. I already knew the first 2 were repros and I believe there are others mixed in this is why I havent posted. I hate it when repros are mixed into the real ones.
 

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guitar1580

Tenderfoot
Jun 20, 2013
8
9
West Virginia
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Thanks a million, Grim Reaper. That is a huge help. I'll get that info to my neighbor before he sells the items.

The gorget, just from memory, is approx. 4" to 4.5". I think it is made of slate, but I don't know how to tell if it's a repro or not.

Yes, the axes do seem fairly shiny, so I'm sure they could be repros too. The one is just too perfect.

I greatly appreciate the info you folks have shared. I'm still hoping to buy a couple trays of the more average points. I'm mostly interested in them since they are from the area where I live. Looking at the back of the frames, we saw where someone must have tried to sell them at a yard sale or flea market, and had prices of $130 to $150 per frame. Evidently they didn't sell at that price. Do you guys think $100 to $125 would be a fair price to offer? I'm wanting to help them out, so I'm not looking to lowball them or anything.... just trying to be fair to them and myself. Thx again.

JT
 

The Grim Reaper

Gold Member
Apr 3, 2008
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If you could obtain any of those trays for $125 to $150 each that would be a great deal. He could probably piece them out and get a lot more though. You figure if a tray has 40 Points in it and he averages $15 a Point that's $600.
 

rock

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Aug 25, 2012
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Sounds fair on the price to offer. If you plan on keeping them. Do you get the frames with that price? If so most nice wood frames can go for 25$ and up.
 

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guitar1580

Tenderfoot
Jun 20, 2013
8
9
West Virginia
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
I don't think he plans on piecing them out, and doing a lot of time consuming work. He's in his 70s, doesn't really know how to sell on ebay, and is not going to profit himself. He's mostly selling them for his wife's widow friend, who will get the proceeds. He does have a son who is interested in some of them, and has been helping to get info, as well as myself.

I think at least one of the more average frames is going to be made available to me, and at least one to the son, for our legwork ... and I think the fellow himself may keep one. For the most part, I think he would like to sell it as one big collection for a lump sum. I'm not sure if I'll have the chance to offer on several of the frames or not, but I'm going to try.

Some of the frames look fairly old, and are either glued are screwed shut. Everything is still up in the air at the moment, as more info comes in. The son did confirm that he came up with the gray ghost info too, so that's a little disappointing to all of us. Haven't talked to them for a few days, but will keep you guys updated.

JT
 

rock

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Now as for the small arrowheads believe it or not I can buy the small ones for $1-$1.50 each. Small being 1 inch and field grade color. The ones I buy are the real deal and not reproductions. Now the bigger ones 2 inches and up cost a bit more around $8 each so if you buy some for the $100 try to get the larger ones.
 

NC field hunter

Silver Member
Jul 29, 2012
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You may want to take a few pics of the pieces in the miscellaneous box. I think I see a couple of nutting stones in there along with a bell or hoof pestle, another grooved axe and what appears to be a piece of a banner stone. I see something drilled out in there. Personally, I can't find fault with the axes. I may if I knew where they were from, but they look ok to me. Being that the two recognized repros. Are actually valuable, sought after repro pieces, it seems to me that a serious collector owned this collection. Reaper is a serious collector. I had never heard of a "grey ghost". Could be that this is a really valuable array you have here.
 

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guitar1580

Tenderfoot
Jun 20, 2013
8
9
West Virginia
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Update:
My neighbor ended up selling the collection for $2500, to a hunter / collector who is a friend of his son. He included 18 of the 23 trays, the gorget, and the box of misc. items. The buyer knew about the grey ghosts, and examined the framed points and felt that they were all authentic. I'm not sure what he determined in his own mind about the axe heads. His wife was very impressed with the gorget.

Of the 5 trays that my friend held back, he kept one, his son & I each got one for helping with the research, and 2 others are in limbo, to be offered to other family members. If they decline to purchase them, I may have the chance to get another. I got mine for $100, and was able to pick from 3. I'm happy with the one I got, because it has a nice variety of styles, sizes, and colors / materials, and has 55 points. Overall, we all had fun learning about them, aside from the "grey ghost disappointment". They were very appreciative of the help I provided, and I'd like to thank the folks here for helping me out, especially Grim Reaper for the pricing info.

I'm including pics of the one I got, with some close-ups, and if Reaper, or anyone else with knowledge cares to take the time to look at the points and provide any info. at all concerning names, styles, time periods, tribes, materials used, values, etc., I'd be very appreciative, since I know very little about them. I find it interesting that some are just triangular, and some have the "tang" on the rear, and I wonder if some types are specifically used for spears, arrows, hunting, battle, etc. I numbered the pics for reference.
JT

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