Turtle effigy pipe?

[Birky]

I'm not exactly sure what the posting etiquette is here but rather than retyping my previous post in "Todays finds" I'll first try the lazy route and hope for the best..

Over this past weekend I was fortunate enough to come across what I consider to be the find of a lifetime..though In my lingering excitement I may be exaggerating things just a bit..

I believe it is an effigy pipe, constructed from sandstone and it was found in southwestern Ohio in an area that I only know to have been inhabited by the Shawnee, whether or not it predates them is far beyond me. That is my limited knowledge on the matter so please do excuse my ignorance..

Any insight and info into it's origins/material/age etc.. would be phenominal.

Background story here:http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/373910-what-i-think.html

 

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[catherine1]

Nice pipe. I live in the same area. It looks Ft. Ancient/Woodland. More information on the location would help. Lets see what GR has to say about that pipe. I am thinking banner! If the real deal. Thanks for posting.

 

[Tnmountains]

That right Grim is from that area isn't he? I saw this and commented on it in todays finds. Great story and nice arrowhead as well.
Congratulations Birky. Is the hole all the way thru the turtle head to the bowl?

 

[Wyoming Valley Relics]

Amazing find!

could it be a snake? I know you guys have that snake mound somewhere in that state.

 

[timekiller]

Little doubt about what it is.I always like finding pipes but that's as cool as it get's there. Great camera shot's you got of it as well.
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[The Grim Reaper]

It is a cool looking piece, but here's what I don't like about it. It may just be the lighting from the pics but why are the holes a different color than the rest of the piece? The patina inside the holes is completely different than the rest of the piece. I have a sandstone Pipe that I just found a couple years back on a Ft Ancient site and the holes have the same exact patina as the rest of the stone. I'm not saying it's definitely bad but it just doesn't look right to me.

Here is the one I found and you can see that there is no difference in the patina inside the holes to the outside.

 

[Americus]

That is an amazing find. Thanks for sharing.

 

[GaRebel1861]

Truly a find of a lifetime! Congratulations. With a find like that, I bet you can't wait to go back. Good luck!!

 

[monsterrack]

It is a cool looking piece, but here's what I don't like about it. It may just be the lighting from the pics but why are the holes a different color than the rest of the piece? The patina inside the holes is completely different than the rest of the piece. I have a sandstone Pipe that I just found a couple years back on a Ft Ancient site and the holes have the same exact patina as the rest of the stone. I'm not saying it's definitely bad but it just doesn't look right to me.

Here is the one I found and you can see that there is no difference in the patina inside the holes to the outside.

I don't wont to be negative about a find but, that looks almost like tool cuts around the neck an mouth and the eyes look to deep cut and I agree on the patina. I'm just saying I would like to put a glass on that one ,but it is cool looking

 

[NC field hunter]

I do not like bearing bad news, but if I were to see this piece at a sell, I'd think its a reproduction. Remember, I'm no expert, so my opinion is.... Well, just that. Here is what I see. I have enlarged your picture and drawn an arrow pointing to what I see as strange.



Notice the band around the top of the pipe that lacks patina. The hole also looks like it tapers to a little rim or lip. It just strikes me as odd. I mean no harm. I too have found pieces that are odd and just too good to be true. I have also been offended by people sharing their opinion, after I ask for it. It takes a little self examination in those cases. Lol!

 

[painterx7]

Good eye sir nice observation

 

[Birky]

Thank you all for your comments and criticism alike, I take no offense whatsoever

I'm probably the furthest thing from an expert on such things but there were a couple of areas that just didn't look right to me either. The discoloration or patina inside the holes seemed a bit odd to me as well but I hoped by some chance that would be some sort of evidence that it had been used before..even though my instinct told me that any trace of such use would be long gone. Maybe the fact that it was stuffed solid with gray clay could have caused this? I personally have no idea.

There also appears to be grooving inside one of the eyes that almost seems as if a threaded type object was used to create them?..but again my opinion has very little knowledge to support it...

NC field hunter: Now that you point it out the is a pretty clean bevel around the hole in the top...it looks strange to me as well.

I sure hope I didn't create any of these questionable attributes while cleaning it, though I doubt I did as I was very careful...

I guess the only way to feel good about this again is to let an expert decide.

Catherine or Grim could you recommend anyone to me in the area or point me in the right direction? I would really appreciate it!

Thanks again to all for checking it out, I've got my fingers crossed

Chris

 

[Birky]

That right Grim is from that area isn't he? I saw this and commented on it in todays finds. Great story and nice arrowhead as well.
Congratulations Birky. Is the hole all the way thru the turtle head to the bowl?

Thanks again TNM, the hole is indeed all the way through.

HH,
Chris

 

[Birky]

In the meantime I'm going to try and take some macro shots of the areas in question to hopefully sway some of the knowledgeable folks around here into easing my mind

Thanks again to all and HH,
Chris

 

[NC field hunter]

Thank you all for your comments and criticism alike, I take no offense whatsoever

I'm probably the furthest thing from an expert on such things but there were a couple of areas that just didn't look right to me either. The discoloration or patina inside the holes seemed a bit odd to me as well but I hoped by some chance that would be some sort of evidence that it had been used before..even though my instinct told me that any trace of such use would be long gone. Maybe the fact that it was stuffed solid with gray clay could have caused this? I personally have no idea.

There also appears to be grooving inside one of the eyes that almost seems as if a threaded type object was used to create them?..but again my opinion has very little knowledge to support it...

NC field hunter: Now that you point it out the is a pretty clean bevel around the hole in the top...it looks strange to me as well.

I sure hope I didn't create any of these questionable attributes while cleaning it, though I doubt I did as I was very careful...

I guess the only way to feel good about this again is to let an expert decide.

Catherine or Grim could you recommend anyone to me in the area or point me in the right direction? I would really appreciate it!

Thanks again to all for checking it out, I've got my fingers crossed

Chris

It sounds like you are starting to get disappointed. Do not be disappointed by any opinion that was formed while looking at a picture. You know it was in the dirt. Until someone can give an absolute 100% reason for you to believe the piece is no good, it's still in the game. I have a pendant that I almost wish I had never found. I know how you feel. Every time I show the pendant to people, I feel as if they believe I'm lying about finding it. I have absolutely no reason to doubt your word. Others should not doubt it either. Good luck on an explanation and I hope you hear what you want.

 

[catherine1]

Chris I noticed the difference in patina also. Some closer pics of the eyes and mouth would be nice. The pic of the bowl that NC enlarged looks pretty good. We would need your location to steer you to someone close for a in hand inspection. Also the general area it was found at always helps.

 

[Get-the-point]

Reap and Nc are correct. The patina would be uniform throughout the piece. Take a look at Reaps Ft. Ancient pipe it has a clear and uniform patina. Even in the bowl part........................GTP

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Birky, what part of Ohio are you in? I know it says southwestern, but does that mean the Cincy area? If so you can send trevmma a PM on here and see if he could look at it for you. He and his buddy Shane are from the area, Springboro I think, and both are very good with artifacts. I would trust Trevs opinion.

 

[monsterrack]

Never let someone's opinion change what you think of something you found. If you picked it up yourself then you know what matters. I have posted artifacts that other have made comments on and sometimes it will prick your skin if it is thin, but on here when you post something it is open to eyes all over by the pics you take. With out someone putting a 100 power loop on it and know what to look for can anyone say for sure anything about your find. Good Luck and HH

 

[rock]

True words rack. I have found one thing that was in the mud that did preserve the berry stains on the artifact so if you did find it in the mud and it had fallen in there rite after making the piece then yes it would be preserved till found. So I guess nothing is impossible. To get it certified would be a good thing if you really believe it is old. Cant see that on a screen from a pic.