Spade or Celt: Newbie questions

[rocke]

Below is a picture of three celts/spaces. Is there a way to determine which one is a celt or a spade.

The flint celt/spade is polished on the end so I am assuming it was a spade, polished by digging. As you can see the other two celts/spades are a similar material but different configuration. One has a relatively flat top and a flared bottom. The other has a much narrower top and a more rounded bottom. It was my understanding that the square top indicated a spade but the bottom certainly looks more axe like. Any opinion?

Also, does the material have anything to do with the period it was made? Based on some preliminary research, it looks like they might be Archaic or Mississippian. I actually have no confidence in my assessment.

I do not know where these pieces actually came from but they are a from a collection that was purchased in
Cherokee, NC in the late 1920's. It is my understanding that they were the made by the Cherokee--not necessarily around Cherokee, NC but the areas they occupied.

Also, any idea as to potential value. It seems these objects can be all over the deck relative to price and I don't know what begins to establish there value beyond grade and size.

Thanks for any info.

 

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[monsterrack]

The one on the left is a hoe, the one in the center is a polished celt, but I don't see any wear on it and the other is a axe/celt item but I see no wear on it also. With what I see from the photo the two artifacts to the right may have been burial items are something along that line. They were never used to cut or chisel anything.JMO They are super artifacts

 

[painterx7]

Yep I agree first one a hoe made from Dover flint other two celts and all are great pieces !!!!!

 

[GatorBoy]

I agree with both of them except that a look straight at the bit would be necessary for the two on the right to determine whether or not they were a celt or an adze.. Most likely both are celts... Though the wider one has sort of the look of an adze at the bit

 

[GatorBoy]

Let me see if i can illustrate the difference for you.
A celt is basically an ungrooved axe.. With a straight centered bit made for chopping through material



An adze.. Has a bit beveled from one direction in order to create what is basically a swinging wood chisel



Adze hafting

 

[GatorBoy]

Celt hafting

 

[rocke]

Let me see if i can illustrate the difference for you.
A celt is basically an ungrooved axe.. With a straight centered bit made for chopping through material

View attachment 1029239

An adze.. Has a bit beveled from one direction in order to create what is basically a swinging wood chisel

View attachment 1029241

Adze hafting

View attachment 1029242

Thanks for the visuals. They are most definitely celts since they have a centered edge. And now I know what to look for in terms of an adze with the cutting edge being off center like a chisel.

Thanks to all the others who answered me as well. Great information.

Another question. So whether they have a narrow rounded end or a wide flat end makes no difference (I don't mean the cutting edge) as to whether it might be a hoe or not. Actually, I assume the thinner shapes, i.e. the flint hoe, make more since as a hoe rather than a celt/axe.

Also, are the celts an evolution of the fluted stone axe?

Thanks, again.

 

[GatorBoy]

The woodland and later celt is absolutely an evolution of the archaic grooved axe. I'm talking about ground stone here not chipped

 

[rocke]

I meant "ground" stone, not the chipped. Thanks for the vocab lesson since they are both "stone". Like I said earlier, I'm a newbie at this. So is that to say that all fluted ground stone axes are from the Archaic period while chipped tools would be from a later period like Woodland or Mississippian. Is the same true for ground stone celts versus chipped flint celts/hoes like those shown in the image?

Thanks

 

[painterx7]

I would like to see up close pictures of the hoes bit end when u get a chance . Thanks

 

[joshuaream]

Very nice pieces, with great size. Assuming they are authentic: The first piece (the hoe/spade) is probably from Tennessee area based on the material and form. The second piece could very well be from the same area and is a Mississippian Celt. The last piece is the nicest in my opinion, it looks like a flared bit celt to me. The size and style suggest Illinois, Indiana and eastern Missouri near Cahokia, which would be Mississippian or maybe Hopewell, which would be Woodland or slightly earlier than Mississippian.

All of them would predate the Cherokee tribe, these would have been made by the Mississippian or early ancestors of tribes like the Creek, Catawba and other groups in the Southeast. When these were made the groups who became the Cherokee were probably still around the Great Lakes and into Canada. (Linguistically they speak a language similar to what the Iroquois in New York spoke. Many Cherokee today believe they came from either South or Central America in ancient times.)

 

[rocke]

QUOTE=painterx7;4112400]I would like to see up close pictures of the hoes bit end when u get a chance . Thanks [/QUOTE]

Here is a close up of each end of the hoe.

 

[rocke]

Very nice pieces, with great size. Assuming they are authentic: The first piece (the hoe/spade) is probably from Tennessee area based on the material and form. The second piece could very well be from the same area and is a Mississippian Celt. The last piece is the nicest in my opinion, it looks like a flared bit celt to me. The size and style suggest Illinois, Indiana and eastern Missouri near Cahokia, which would be Mississippian or maybe Hopewell, which would be Woodland or slightly earlier than Mississippian.

All of them would predate the Cherokee tribe, these would have been made by the Mississippian or early ancestors of tribes like the Creek, Catawba and other groups in the Southeast. When these were made the groups who became the Cherokee were probably still around the Great Lakes and into Canada. (Linguistically they speak a language similar to what the Iroquois in New York spoke. Many Cherokee today believe they came from either South or Central America in ancient times.)

Thank you for the incredible assessment. As I go through several of the pieces on this forum, it does appear that not all the pieces are Cherokee. In another thread a pieces was described as a corner-tang knife which appears to be from Texas, so it does not surprise me that the flared bit celt would be from the area you suggest.

Also, thank you for the chronology on the Cherokee tribe.

Again, thanks for the great info.

 

[rock]

I know you wanted to hear a value on your pieces. Its not the best time to be selling artifacts if you are looking for "big" money. There is so many reproductions in the market and it has really driven down the prices weather they are real or reproductions. You can google some sites and get your own ideas as the values. Insurance values are usually higher than actual retail prices.

 

[painterx7]

QUOTE=painterx7;4112400]I would like to see up close pictures of the hoes bit end when u get a chance . Thanks

Here is a close up of each end of the hoe. <img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1029730"/><img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1029731"/>[/QUOTE]nice hoe they made these types of thinner hoes in bottom lands where there are few rocks .. As they wouldn't work well in super rocky dirt

 

[rock]

Sure wish I could find a hoe like the ones posted. Painters looks almost just like the first one by design and shape

 

[painterx7]

Thank you rock