The Greedy COA people.

[Igyjastabay]

Ever noticed the little boys who claim they can authenticate ancient stone never appear on forums.. Its like: Ok I am going to start a business with artifacts. I am going to sell them and authenticate them, but noooo, I will not stoop so low to make a comment on an artifact board. Lots of stupid people out there that give them business (political comment rule violation) Its disgusting to an intelligent man.

 

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[Charl]

Gary Fogelman is the editor of Indian Artifact Magazine(IAM). A great mag, but which is ceasing publication this year, unfortunately. In the Feb. 2014 issue of his quarterly, he penned an essay describing the saga of some fake bannerstones and COA's. To illustrate the kinds of things happening today. Gary has given permission to reprint this short essay and post it around as a heads up. Food for thought.....

"Certificates of Authenticity perhaps meant something at one time, back when only one or two people were doing it, worthy people too, trying to provide a service in an honest and forthright manner. There are still a few that do this, but most you haven't heard of. The ones you have heard of, the ones with their names on every*thing floating around today? Those papers would best be of use in the hunting camp outhouse. The genre has been so polluted with fake papers, and fakes being papered, it's hard to wade through the mess.

It's a shame that there is no main data information center for people to access for the latest news, information, etc. IAM does this very thing, but those that need this information the most are often the ones who feel they don't need it. In that regard it's almost tempting to say that some of these deserve what they get but then, that's just what the fakers and con artists use as justification for their actions.


Last year in Vol. 31-4 we showed some fake bannerstones that were making the rounds. We knew they were fakes because Paul Frey had witnessed the guy making some and saw others he had already made. These were fashioned after the forms from the Koens Crispin site in New Jersey. Later, in Vol. 32-2 we again mentioned the fake bannerstones and also showed some fake Adena points. These were also mentioned in Vol. 32*3.


An initial scam with the bannerstones saw a collector/dealer here in PA purchase a number of these, only to find out that he had been taken with the modern reproductions. I'm not sure how that turned out, if he got any of his money back or not, but it caused a lot of anguish and this guy later passed away.


Meanwhile, we attended Bennett's Collector Rendezvous in 2012, and three showed up there, but now they had COA's! I alerted Jim about them and he pulled them from the auction. When the consignee was informed on why they were not sold, there was no fuss and no muss, for that guy already knew they were modern.


I wrote about this then and opined that many offering COA's are selling out, and/or are in cahoots with each other. Some bad things are papered, and this is backed up by a COA from someone else! How many stinking COA's does a piece need? So, if these fakes are getting by these people, the ones who handle more than anybody else, are they really competent to be offering COA's


These same bannerstones then went through another auction house, with more COA's, and some people paid good sums of money. Keep ship*ping them around long enough and finally they will reach someone who is out of the loop, was never in the loop, or doesn't care to be connected with any loops. More's the pity. So the fakers and con artists get bolder.


To wit: As noted, in Vol. 32-2 and 3 we showed some Adena points that were coming on the market, supposedly from the DelMarVa Peninsula, particularly from a site that produced the material that noted collector Earl Townsend ended up with. That assem*blage was well documented. Flint Ridge flint as a material used for this assemblage was very rare.


But, all of sudden, there's a number of these being offered for sale, with Townsend collection attribution, and even Townsend-like writing on them. Recently 7 of these were shown on the cover of a forthcoming auction brochure for a major auction house in Ohio. I did hear that these were pulled from that auction. But, as seen above, that just means they will be shopped around elsewhere until they reach someone who is out of the loop, was never in the loop, or doesn't care to be connected with any loops. And get this, later in that same auction, what else should be offered? Yep, those darn fake bannerstones from PA, with more COA's.


These authenticators set themselves up as experts, and believe me, most are. Once again, they've pretty much seen and handled it all. Yet, time and again, they paper bad things and then claim they were fooled too! This doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. If they're getting fooled all the time, they're no more expert than anybody else.


But rest assured, they're not being fooled. The profit margin between selling a modern fake and a good old piece with a verifiable history is, quite literally, astronomical. With no one stepping up and taking someone to court, this will continue. The problem there is that it becomes a case of he says, she says so to speak, with each side rounding up their 'experts'. As most of you are aware, much of the 'justice' in this country isn't about right and wrong. It's about who can put up the most persuasive argument while following 'procedures'. All this takes $$$$$$$. The more money one has, the more 'justice' you get in our court system. For most, such an experience more or less ruins your life. Some, not wanting to face it, commit suicide. Some endure, like Art Gerber, but then suffer financially, socially and health-wise.


Thus, for those that do get burned, it's easier to try and re-sell to someone to re-coup the loss, or take the loss and shut up. And so it goes.


People take a liking to artifacts for various reasons. They come along at various stages of their lives. Most of us are fascinated with finding remnants of prehistoric cultures that inhabited this land before us, and learning how these remnants were made and used, and when. Some are, quite literally, miniature works of art in stone, and we appreciate that as well.


Some take a liking to the value of things and a way to make money and some as a means of investing some money. It's a recipe for disaster when someone without knowledge jumps in with both feet and begins buying things up. They go to auctions and just buy, buy, buy. Naturally they end up with lots of stuff, some good, most mediocre or worse and they can never hope to recoup the value of what was expended as they overpaid in their eagerness to acquire.


The worst scenario of all is when a person with no connections hooks up with a shyster dealer. And I've seen this; some will actually have cabinets or rooms full of bogus things, the most fanciful and sometimes gaudy things you can imagine. These were fed to them over the years as the seller became bolder with what he could get away with and what he could charge. The 'mark', being unconnected, ferrets things away and never finds out, or his heirs do, that the stuff is all modern.


So, the best I can leave you with from this, and I've emphasized it before, is that you have a circle of friends to share things with and get opinions from. Try to get to artifact gatherings and shows. Visit historical societies and museums and other collectors. Get books appropriate to your area of interest.


There's no reason you shouldn't buy some of these things. I realized early on there were things I would probably never find. I began by augmenting from local collections and collectors I knew. This helped build knowledge of the local artifact assemblages.


Your area of expertise can be expanded from the local knowledge base into other areas. But always, gain some familiarity and knowledge of that/those areas before buying things."




Reprinted with Permission of Gary Fogelman, Editor of Indian Artifact Magazine.
Originally published in Indian Artifact Magazine, February 2014, VOL.33-1 page 20-21.

 

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[scotto]

What ever....

Was that in response to my post?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Was that in response to my post?

No sir..

 

[T.C.]

I don't know why the Mods leave your avatar up....it's disgusting!! I thought this was a family friendly forum??

Have you ever met some of these people? Jeez. I am sorta clean cut with an education under my belt, but jeez. These dudes are just taking your money. Most of them, with the exception of a few like Jon Dickinson and John Berner, don't even have a degree from an accredited college. I may run for president because what I read on this forum gives me hope.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

There is nothing wrong with the avatar, it is a dance step..

 

[T.C.]

I disagree....

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I disagree....

TC your welcome to disagree, but it violates no TN rules. You could run a program that blocks all animated gifs if it bothers you...

 

[T.C.]

No, I'm not gonna run anything different. I stand by my comment....

 

[Charl]

It isn't just fake artifacts a collector must be careful to avoid. Fake provenance can also get you burned. When I first started buying artifacts, I let it be known that I was interested in things from my home state of RI. I never dreamed it was the worse thing I could do. I was buying from one of the biggest dealers in the country at the time. Indeed, one of the most famous collectors in the country, in Who's Who in Indian Artifacts up the wazoo. Although I had hunted arrowheads on and off since childhood, I really was not as experienced in my local/regional lithics as I should have been. The dealer took advantage of my ignorance, wrote RI place names on stuff that could never be found in RI, and I bought into it. Fortunately, not forever. I learned, and when this dealer's partner tried to pull the same crap, I asked him if the ink had dried yet. I know for a fact both were doing this deliberately. I honestly wish I could just throw both their names out there, but I'd just be asking to be sued. His name is that prominent in our hobby. But the dealer in question is no longer a dealer, although he still has one of the largest personal collections in the country.

Anyway, when starting out, be careful all around.....

 

[Igyjastabay]

It isn't just fake artifacts a collector must be careful to avoid. Fake provenance can also get you burned. When I first started buying artifacts, I let it be known that I was interested in things from my home state of RI. I never dreamed it was the worse thing I could do. I was buying from one of the biggest dealers in the country at the time. Indeed, one of the most famous collectors in the country, in Who's Who in Indian Artifacts up the wazoo. Although I had hunted arrowheads on and off since childhood, I really was not as experienced in my local/regional lithics as I should have been. The dealer took advantage of my ignorance, wrote RI place names on stuff that could never be found in RI, and I bought into it. Fortunately, not forever. I learned, and when this dealer's partner tried to pull the same crap, I asked him if the ink had dried yet. I know for a fact both were doing this deliberately. I honestly wish I could just throw both their names out there, but I'd just be asking to be sued. His name is that prominent in our hobby. But the dealer in question is no longer a dealer, although he still has one of the largest personal collections in the country.

Anyway, when starting out, be careful all around.....

Charl, you seem informed. In fact I know you are after reading your posts. Joe Schmoooo buys and authentic artifact for $1000 dollars. Jim Shew wants to buy it. Jim knows its real but he wants to know where it came from. Joe Schmoooo doesn't know where it came from but senses the sale will be lost if he provides no explanation. So Joe goes to his man cave and lights a cig. He thinks through the right and the wrong. He tokes hard on that ciggy and decides to give the buyer what he wants. A completely made up pile of donkey dung. It happens allllllll the time. This is why I look at the rock and study the rock.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Posts deleted, gentlemen please end the sniping at each other..

 

[Igyjastabay]

With all due respect, one of these organizations you mentioned was involved in a lawsuit. One of the big boys affiliated with the Wallmart purchased a slew of artifacts from them. Most of them were fake with there own papers backing there relics. Truth is stranger than fiction. None but a few have a flipping education. If I decide to but some Procter and Gamble stock I am not going to buy it from a man that does not have accreditation.

 

[quito]

Charl, you seem informed. In fact I know you are after reading your posts. Joe Schmoooo buys and authentic artifact for $1000 dollars. Jim Shew wants to buy it. Jim knows its real but he wants to know where it came from. Joe Schmoooo doesn't know where it came from but senses the sale will be lost if he provides no explanation. So Joe goes to his man cave and lights a cig. He thinks through the right and the wrong. He tokes hard on that ciggy and decides to give the buyer what he wants. A completely made up pile of donkey dung. It happens allllllll the time. This is why I look at the rock and study the rock.

So, this happens ALLLLL the time eh? That sucks! No wonder you are so mis-trusting.

I'd move if that's how the artifact people were where I lived.

 

[T.C.]

If memory serves me right, the FBI was involved in this fiasco...

With all due respect, one of these organizations you mentioned was involved in a lawsuit. One of the big boys affiliated with the Wallmart purchased a slew of artifacts from them. Most of them were fake with there own papers backing there relics. Truth is stranger than fiction. None but a few have a flipping education. If I decide to but some Procter and Gamble stock I am not going to buy it from a man that does not have accreditation.

 

[Mark Todd]

Sorry but I can't follow your logic "lgyjastabay". You ridicule COA's that don't have Accreditation or a degree in what (COA)?
I could give a rats behind as to whether a "COA" had some sort of accreditation or not, after all advertisements abound for/with things that will cure everything imaginable, and these proponents are always certified, but are just selling "snake oil" to the naive.
If you've got burned in the past, then learn from it, like "charl", rather than being bitter.
The very thing you say that is necessary "a degree or accreditation " is precisely what doesn't necessarily mean anything. Experience is always more helpful than regulation certification. After all what is ones accreditation/certification but a "COA" from some college, university, or other institutions.

 

[Igyjastabay]

Again, its cracks me up. The "300" authenticators do not participate in forum discussions. They are experts and dont you forget that. Blow good money after bad. They prey on the folks with room temperature IQ's. Its not rocket science.

 

[rocky ALLETI]

That collection sold for over $800,000 and it was 90% bad. I know because I had a lot of it sent to me. I took it to The Kentucky Show and displayed it as repos. Rocky Falleti

 

[Tnmountains]

I once tried to get Bob Overstreet to participate in an old worn out discussion here on his theory of the snapped base Kirks. He would not. On the other hand many Archeologist do visit the forum but very few participate in active discussions.There are active forums for Archeologist already. They like many enjoy seeing the finds and picking up information.
I think a Perino paper would be like an old Apple stock with Steve Jobs signature.
COA's are easy to obtain now. I have also heard of good pieces being turned down .
This is common when a hobby can become lucrative. Some of my best sites are now hunted by many to be sold on e-bay. People get greedy.
The world is full of fake artifacts so you better have your A game on if you are a buyer COA or not.
Like Maine Jim said it is not worth the hassle for me.

 

[Charl]

As far as not participating on an artifact forum, if anybody knows the futility of authenticating by photos posted to a forum, an honest authenticator is certainly one such individual. If a good authenticator were a regular, he'd hear a lot of "what do ya think of this one?". If I were a well known authenticator, I would not hang out on an artifact forum either.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

As far as not participating on an artifact forum, if anybody knows the futility of authenticating by photos posted to a forum, an honest authenticator is certainly one such individual. If a good authenticator were a regular, he'd hear a lot of "what do ya think of this one?". If I were a well known authenticator, I would not hang out on an artifact forum either.

Spot on Charl..👍