Crinoid or Bead?

[autographcollector11]

I know-loaded question but is there a way to determine if a Crinoid was actually used as a bead? The attached image was found near flakes and points-on a friends property a few years back.
any ideas?

 

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[chase2]

That is a tough question. is there any wear? they did use them as beads.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Is it polished on the ends? I have some that came from Ft Ancient sites that I am sure are Beads. I also have some from the same site that were never used and are still very rough looking. They did bring them in to the camps and used them as Beads so yours very well could be one.

 

[autographcollector11]

Here are better images. I have many Crinoids from Lake Michigan but this is the most detailed and cylindrical that I found. Hard to say if it is worn or polished so I'll let you be the judge.
The hole goes straight thru which I know is normal but still a nice piece.
thoughts?
thanks

 

[beadman2]

..id say that is a crinoid bead...see how it is barral shaped and resembles more like a bead...i find crinoid beads all the time on a glass trade bead sites...sometimes you find them like that .with more of the stem...sometimes more like disc wampum ....with only a cross section of the crinoid stem...they also liked fossils or anything wierd or neat lookin or eye catchy...the possibilites are endless...look for wear(polishing) or where they worked it....dont be suprised if you dont find any most crinoids have a rough surface...there may not be any....they also carried things in animal pouches(medicine bags)...remember they were highly superstiseous and they were a paganistic religion(many gods) not monetheistic like today...so a lot of things meant many things to them or the indevidual..although they believed in "mantou" (the great life force)...changes came with the jesuits...remember also their loved ones died ...sometimes horrific deaths (children) (elders) etc....they were very loved and they buried many things with them....also they believed heavily in witchcraft (ill wishers)..shapeshifting etc.....shamans were held in high regard

 

[Rivers rat]

What about a broken clay pipe stem


RR

 

[autographcollector11]

Thanks Beadman. You know your beads! I don't see the barrel look that you refer to but like the idea that it may be used as a bead. What causes the barrel look?
Thanks

 

[Beadman]

looking at it again ...its definatly a bead...you can see how they ground it flat on the ends and slightly rounded the edges...unless maybe it naturally weathered that way(i have picked up crinoid stems that were naturally rounded) but it didnt have a hole...this does ..again it suggests adornment (bead)....a clay pipe stem have been used as beads as suggested above but you will know one if you see it...by color and the shell/sand/stone grit temper they used in the clay...and it will be tapered (hence a broken pipe stem rounded on ends)...bore hole usually bigger too...kaolin pipes and pipe beads r white...this is a crinoid because of the horizontal striations typical of that type of fossil...

 

[Beadman]

as far as barrel shape....what i am refering to is ...in basic term just geometric shape...i.e...is it round ...rectangle...disc...triangle...etc....this is a barrel shape.....when you get into glass beads we use slang terms and book terms.....like tumbled(smoothed in a drum)..or tubeler(short barrel either tumbled or not)..or straw bead(looks like a piece of straw with jagged broken ends)...or licorice stick(cause it looks like a twizler).....disc(thin like a flying saucer)....round(self describing)...wheat bead or football(oblong round)...etc...also we describe see through capabilities of the bead with light ....opaque(doesnt let light through)...translucent(shows light through slightly)...or transparent(completely shows light through)...then of course there is color descriptions...and the type of bead...drawn bead(either tumbled to round or barrel or not left like a straw and segmented or as its drawn twisted like a piece of licorice either fast or loosely)....or wire wound...heat wrapped around a mandril....blown bead....and sometimes they were fire polished(heated again to smooth)....BEADS are a great time marker...although that crinoid could be from anytime because its not glass....so it could be archaic or woodland or historic...

 

[Beadman]

there r by far other experts out there doing far more than me....karkins .....kidd....etc....that r actually conducting chemical analysis on beads to find out their chemical composition.....my backround is a love for artifacts in general and specifically iroquois in ny/pa born from being around them since a child...my dads 67...i collected with him since about 8 (im now almost 40)....but my passion really ignited with BEADS and the fur trade in the great lakes.....im always learning new things...and i always try to keep my mind open...theres always new ways to approach this subject...there is still much we dont know and some we may never truly know...

 

[Beadman]

i will tell you what i use wich helps a lot...sorry not trying to be smart here but......common sense goes a long way....like the saying goes ...if it looks like a duck and quacks like one ....most likely it is one....you say you found it by flint chips and pts...thats a good sign....look at it does it look similar to a bead? ....or more like just a fossil?....is there any wear? or modification? that points to man havin manipulated it?....again its found along with other tools....that is a more likely indication that it is something than... that its not.....patterns will emerge with man using things to survive and you can start to see whats going on....remember sometimes we get things wrong ...sometimes things werent always wore...maybe they just held on to it for a special meaning....other tools were meant for nothing else but a specific job ...take an awl for example ...some tool were multiuse....just depends on the general tool and use....beads r adornment and class status....

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I have to agree with beadman. After seeing your close up pictures that one was definitely a Bead. Very nice one too.

Barrel Bead refers to the shape. There are two Shell Barrel Beads in this pic on both sides in the middle.

 

[joshuaream]

I'll echo what Steve wrote in his first post, if you found it on a site that produces other man made beads then maybe, but if it was just a creek/field find with flakes, then I'd say no it isn't a bead.

Beadman, Mantou is a delicious steamed bun from Northern China (I fell in love with them when I worked in Beijing.). Manitou is an Algonquin word/concept, I'm pretty sure it's specific to the area they occupied. The Cherokee, Souix, Seminole, Modok, and others, for example, had completely different pantheon/religious views at the time of contact.

 

[autographcollector11]

Thanks everyone-really good information on this one. I have found a few in the area, but this is the nicest of them all. The fact that the hole goes all the way thru was what caught my eye....

 

[Beadman]

reaper nice beads ...love that shell gorget is it abalone?......i will uphold what reaper says .....its a bead more than likely....were talking beads not pts....however if you find flakes wouldnt that mean they were working pts ....usually if i find a flake ...im gonna start looking for pts or tools....heres a fact around here(great lakes region) they used everything as damn beads ...anything that was cool and had a natural hole or they could make one...especially FOSSILS...they r not going to drill through granite duh...so they used sedimentary or softer type stones and harder ones for rubbing stones etc....stuff you can work....crinoids have both natural holes or u can easily put one through it....an they r light in weight....this crinoid is a bead ...look at it...you can tell...if you have been around enough beads i have 67 strings currently and thats just strings...then you will know a bead...if they native drilled it ...usually you can see a ridge in the middle where they drilled it from both sides for suspension and bore holes r bigger and possibly a little crooked....when they had european contact and beads through trade the bore holes were smaller and straight from a steel drill....they also grooved beads to hang for suspension.....very easy to tell and also affects value and prices as well...

 

[Beadman]

joshua....yes manitou is an algonquin word...according to papers i have concerning jesuit related artifact (rings'crosses'medals)...it also means life force...iroquoin speaking tribes around the great lakes also adapted a lot of the same religious views as their neigbors.....political views and stances in trade were another story.....i dont deal with groups or artifacts outside of my geographical location unless they r close& of intrest to me ...i dont even deal with where reaper is although ohio produces a lot of the same artifacts as here ....i cant speak for soix'seminole' cherokee..etc....im specific to seneca/cayuga & the five tribes in ny....and i deal with susquehannock and lenapi tribes in pa...my research does occasionally spread out and cover other topics that directly deal with the seneca...for example huron petun and neutral nations the over throw of the eries and susquehannocks...trade with dutch english and french...the jesuits...father rafliex and fremin etc....the raids on colonist and the first settlements such as jamestown or lost colony of roanoke and plymoth..william penn and his proprieters and founding of the commonwealth of pennsylvania....and the dawn of the american revolution and the british and continental forces...washington franklin sullivan etc...they all played a role in a very intresting time....ive even researched de sotos expedition in florida and the founding of st augistine...because it deals with trade and BEADS...hell even pirates had em....

 

[Hot diggity]

One period at a time bead.

 

[Beadman]

yes hot diggity...and this is prob more than likely...woodland ....possibly archaic....prob not historic because there is no site atributed to it....clearly it was lost or possible a camp....shores of a lake....lost in traveling to or from somewhere ?....so we cannot be certain so it will be in the unknown catagory of beads...but its more than likely a bead .....end of this discussion

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I think the Gorget is Abalone, but if it is it sure traveled a long way. This was found on a Ft Ancient site in southern Ohio.