Point Type

[Hill Billy]

I need some help with this one.Two friends have two different opinions.What do you guys and gals think it is ?It was found in Ky. Thanks HB

 

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[irbaddadjoe]

Arrowhead! Sorry I couldnt help it. Nice looking point.

 

[ohio]

It is a Pinetree and a very nice one at that. Thanks for the look.

 

[ohioriver hunter]

I need some help with this one.Two friends have two different opinions.What do you guys and gals think it is ?It was found in Ky. Thanks HB

Looks like a ST. Charles or a dovetail ,possibly carter county flint,. Whatever it is ,I mean that is one nice find. Ohio River hunter

 

[Johnny X]

I need some help with this one.Two friends have two different opinions.What do you guys and gals think it is ?It was found in Ky. Thanks HB

Looks like a ST. Charles or a dovetail ,possibly carter county flint,. Whatever it is ,I mean that is one nice find. Ohio River hunter

agreed.

xstevenx

 

[badandy]

How about Early Archaic side notch! That's what I would go with if you don't get the answer you want.
badandy

 

[Hill Billy]

St Charles and Thebes were my friends guesses.I'm gonna go with the St. Charles.JMO It's 4 1/4" long.

 

[alwayslookin]

Was that found at your uncle's? Just wonderng. I have to get down there!!

Dave

 

[Hill Billy]

No

 

[Cannonman17]

I vote dovetail. I like badandy's answer but would have to say early archaic corner notch vs. side-

 

[Neanderthal]

That's a Lyon County point, and about as classic example as you could find. They are named for examples found in Western Kentucky.

 

[Adena_man]

That looks so much like a Dove or St. Charles, but it also could be labeled corner-notch. One very sweeeet artifact no matter what the type!

 

[Neanderthal]

Here ya go Hill Billy, here's an image of the Lyon County. They are a lesser known point type and are often confused with other types.

Matt

 

[Hill Billy]

Thanks Matt, I have been wondering about this point for a while now.It does look like a dovetail but your picture looks more like it than any pics i have seen.Even the flaking looks right.It was found in Owensboro, Ky.
HB

 

[badandy]

As you can see when I called it a E.A. sidenotch I was tired. Thanks Cannonman, I even read it and didn't catch it. LOL!
badandy

 

[Cannonman17]

This is one of those cases where that point could be identified and labeled at least a half dozen ways or given a half dozen different names, all solely dependant upon what part of the country you are from. This is precisely why I argue the case that it is more important to realize an artifacts use and approximate age rather than try to give it a name. Now if you go look all these names up that people were putting out there like the pinetree, dovetail, lost lake, etc (couldn't find any quick and easy reference on the net about the Lyon co. type) you see they all have one thing is common, early archaic.

 

[Johnny X]

This is one of those cases where that point could be identified and labeled at least a half dozen ways or given a half dozen different names, all solely dependant upon what part of the country you are from. This is precisely why I argue the case that it is more important to realize an artifacts use and approximate age rather than try to give it a name. Now if you go look all these names up that people were putting out there like the pinetree, dovetail, lost lake, etc (couldn't find any quick and easy reference on the net about the Lyon co. type) you see they all have one thing is common, early archaic.

Well put.


xstevenx

 

[Neanderthal]

In most cases, I would agree with you. However, in this instance..it is an identifiable form. Lyon County may share a relationship with Pinetree (A.K.A. Charleston) in that they have been called "indented or notched base pinetree"... and are most likely of the HUGE Kirk family. Dovetail and Lost Lake are a totally different critter with completely different manufacturing techniques. They employ the earliest punch nothing techniques for instance. Well, SOME dove do. Alot of the "St. Charles" don't, which leads some to question relationships there also.

 

[ohioriver hunter]

In most cases, I would agree with you. However, in this instance..it is an identifiable form. Lyon County may share a relationship with Pinetree (A.K.A. Charleston) in that they have been called "indented or notched base pinetree"... and are most likely of the HUGE Kirk family. Dovetail and Lost Lake are a totally different critter with completely different manufacturing techniques. They employ the earliest punch nothing techniques for instance. Well, SOME dove do. Alot of the "St. Charles" don't, which leads some to question relationships there also.

Well I would still say St. Charles or dovetail . I,VE never heard of a lyons but that is part of reason I,m on here is to learn more. I usually don,t post my opinions on points from other parts of country cause I know very little about them but I,m learning . thanks for sharing that information there are so many types and variations of points even the biggest experts get it wrong sometimes. Jeff

 

[Neanderthal]

Typology is a very fickle thing. Alot of the information in typology books today is very incorrect..or has changed. Even some of the later publications (like perino 3..which is one that contains information about a Lyon County). It takes great devotion and a helluva reference database to try to even remotely get a grip on the most basic of typology.

Jeff, you state "St. Charles or Dovetail". The St. Charles were the first to be named the "dovetail". However, there could be a distinct difference between the true St. Charles and what some consider a true Dovetail. One main thing is that St. Charles aren't always punch notched. Some have much wider notches that are just straight pressure. They also can be, and often are, made with a much flatter cross section than what most consider "Early Archaic Dovetail" - which have a lenticular cross section (like Scottsbluff). I'm sure that time will show that the "St. Charles" is most likely a later form than the 'thick, lenticular, punch notched doves' (Like Ohio Button Base). Here's an interesting side note. Greg Perino once shocked me with a statement he made....he told me that it wouldn't surprise him if the Ohio Button Based Doves weren't a Woodland piece? I questioned him about that statement and don't concur with it at all - primarily due to manufacturing techniques. However, there aren't real definitive dates for them yet and ..who knows. I often disagree with his and others assessments in typology and other realms, from personal experiences and experiments. Sharing of information is how we all learn though.

The earliest Doves appear to be thicker, lenticular and share blade manufacturing techniques with early Hardin and even Scottsbluff. In fact, take just a broken blade from an early dove, early Hardin or a scottsbluff..and let's see you tell them apart. Good luck. The earliest Hardin also didn't bevel..you simply cannot tell them apart from Scottsbluff. In another conversation with Perino, he mentioned to me that Hardin have been found on sites in southern Illinois, that date older than Scottsbluff. It appears that Hardin is an eastern tradition, while Scottsbluff (cody) are the plains counterpart. Compare the dates, the technology. Again, this is diffusion at work. Now, as the Hardin progressed they started a trend of started to get more flat, not quite as lenticular and beveling during the resharpening process became a staple - Just like the St. Charles. Do you see a pattern here?

Sorry, didn't mean to start rambling..uggh, I'll stop now.