5" + Llano River Clovis

[mogi]

Just wanted to share this Beauty from my collection. New to the forum. Would love some thoughts.

 

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[monsterrack]

Welcome to T-net Mogi I call that type of stone Texas root beer flint. Please don't take my questions or words the wrong way, but either you have some friends that are very very giving or they have very deep pockets. The reason I say this is, that is a very very high dollar point if it is all on the up and up. I have not seen many Clovis points that were that thin, wide and straight. Most Clovis points have a thicker cross section to them for the reason it help's in the making of a channel flake flute. A very thin Clovis with a flute that size is either very rare or it was made with a fluting jig. The other thing is that most of the points that I have seen made of that type of stone get a heavy white haze over it from exposer to the elements in the Llano River which has a lot of lime stone in it. That is one perfect super fine looking point, if it and the Dove Tail you showed on the other post are on the up and up, my friend you can retire today or have a very nice nest egg. Would love to hear some back ground info on both points and thanks for posting.

 

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[creekhunter]

It looks like someone is a great knapper!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Mogi,

Is the big Texas Dovetail you posted in the other thread made from the same material?

Joshua

I thought the same thing. That's why I asked for more info. Two world class artifacts and no info on them??

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Welcome to T-net Mogi I call that type of stone Texas root beer flint. Please don't take my questions or words the wrong way, but either you have some friends that are very very giving or they have very deep pockets. The reason I say this is, that is a very very high dollar point if it is all on the up and up. I have not seen many Clovis points that were that thin, wide and straight. Most Clovis points have a thicker cross section to them for the reason it help's in the making of a channel flake flute. A very thin Clovis with a flute that size is either very rare or it was made with a fluting jig. The other thing is that most of the points that I have seen made of that type of stone get a heavy white haze over it from exposer to the elements in the Llano River which has a lot of lime stone in it. That is one perfect super fine looking point, if it and the Dove Tail you showed on the other post are on the up and up, my friend you can retire today or have a very nice nest egg. Would love to hear some back ground info on both points and thanks for posting.

Glad to see someone else is as skeptical as I am.

 

[Charl]

Glad to see someone else is as skeptical as I am.

Seriously, anybody with long term experience in this hobby is going to see red flags upon being presented with an 11 1/2" Dovetail. How can one not be skeptical? But we don't know what the experience level is where the original poster is concerned. Some folks may feel a COA or two somehow answers all doubts. But we know it just does not work that way when pieces like this show up. Seriously, what experienced collector among us would not walk away from such a Dovetail without hesitation? If it were presented as ancient? Simply to avoid making a mistake. Simply to go with the odds saying "not likely". Maybe I would say "this might be the greatest Dovetail ever, but no, I cannot risk the likelihood that it is no such thing." I might ask to see who gave it a thumbs up on a COA just to file away the name of whatever authenticator would paper it. And maybe that would somehow change everything, I don't know. The same healthy skepticism is a given where the Clovis is concerned. If you've been involved with the hobby long enough, it's only natural.

 

[Charl]

It may be that the original poster is new to the hobby and does not realize healthy skepticism will be a common response when presented with such pieces. It's not my place to declare them modern. But I cannot prevent my mind from going there. I'm a long term collector. I have not seen everything, but I've seen enough to know many will be skeptical in the absence of information that lowers those red flags. That's just the way it is. I can't prove a thing, nor do I want to. I would love to know they are both truly ancient pieces.

 

[Buckleberry]

The other thing is that of all the types of arrowheads out there, Dovetails and Clovis are without a doubt two of the most replicated ones and they also bring in the most money, there are red flags all over.

 

[mogi]

The flint type is Llano river from Texas, but it was found in Colorado in a cashe of four. One of the points was broken and now my friend owns two including the broken one. An old friend of his has the third one and i have the forth. All were almost the same in size, but my best friends is fluted all the way up. My authenticator said that my point had been used and was resharpened anciently. It is still considered G10 quality though but it brought the high end book value down to 15,000.00.

 

[mogi]

The large Dovetail is a Moss Agate from Texas. People have often discounted it due to it's size until they held it in their hands. It has 2 C.O.A.'s on it with great patina,minerals and dead on basal grinding. I have had many collectors look at it as well and after holding it , i have never had a single person deny it's authenticity.

 

[mogi]

Thanks Grim Reaper. My authenticator said in 45 years that had never seen one that large, but had no problem papering it and told me that if it was his he would never sell it. His exact words were once in a lifetime. He said if i ever was going to sell it not to even speak with anyone under 20,000.00 and that to the right collector could bring 75,000.00.

 

[NCPeaches]

Welcome to the forum mogi! It's absolutely amazing and I am very jealous, you are lucky to have it. Thanks for sharing the pics and the story.

 

[monsterrack]

The flint type is Llano river from Texas, but it was found in Colorado in a cashe of four. One of the points was broken and now my friend owns two including the broken one. An old friend of his has the third one and i have the forth. All were almost the same in size, but my best friends is fluted all the way up. My authenticator said that my point had been used and was resharpened anciently. It is still considered G10 quality though but it brought the high end book value down to 15,000.00.

Could you tell us who did your COA I would just like to know or you can post a photo of it. The one thing I do know is that Clovis was never resharpened , when they did that to a point or blade it was still mounted on a shaft of some sort and they did one edge at a time, just on one side. Which will give the blade a twisted look, something that this point does not have. They did not flake off one side then go to the other side and flake it just to make the shape right. If I'm wrong I would love for you to show me that I am. Don't get mad, let's all learn something new.

 

[monsterrack]

Here are a few things that I state my belief on. Co. has many fine knapping stones, notice these Clovis points and the stone It is not likely that the stone was carried that far when they had much better stone at hand. This is a cross section of a Clovis Notice the shape of the stone, your point does not have this shape. If I'm wrong please show me how I am and teach me something, I am always ready to learn new info on artifacts. Also a cache of points of this type would have made very big news in the artifact world just like all the others that have been found. Lets keep an open dialog because that is how we learn on this site.

 

[mogi]

Here are a few things that I state my belief on. Co. has many fine knapping stones, notice these Clovis points and the stone View attachment 1387459 It is not likely that the stone was carried that far when they had much better stone at hand. This is a cross section of a Clovis View attachment 1387461 Notice the shape of the stone, your point does not have this shape. If I'm wrong please show me how I am and teach me something, I am always ready to learn new info on artifacts. Also a cache of points of this type would have made very big news in the artifact world just like all the others that have been found. Lets keep an open dialog because that is how we learn on this site.

Hey buddy I am actually out of town rock hunting and trying to do this over a phone. Sorry for the unfamiliarity of the site as well. The cross section you are showing appears to be unfluted which would def look different than mine. A Clovis will have a thicker medial ridge to allow for the flute but keep in mind a thin and very well made Clovis will be of more value. Re sharpening is determined under a microscope and not with the naked eye. My friend I have no reason at all to tell tale tales. I will be home tomorrow evening and will post some other pieces. Give me a chance to proof myself. I have never sold a point in my life, but I do have an incredible collection that will be passed down to my son. Much respect!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

You still haven't given us the name of your authenticator. Not trying to be an ass, but we would really like to know who did the COA's for these and told you they were worth that much.

 

[mogi]

I guess you will just have to believe me. I really hope that as i get to know and make new friends on the site that they will be able to take me at my word. Giving out those names would not be appropriate for me to do. I hope you understand.

 

[mogi]

Hey guys - What does Banner Finds mean?

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I guess you will just have to believe me. I really hope that as i get to know and make new friends on the site that they will be able to take me at my word. Giving out those names would not be appropriate for me to do. I hope you understand.

Finding something worthy of being put on the Banner at the top of the page.

As for the name on the COA, you will get a lot more credibility here if you would release all the info on your pieces. As Charl said above, any collector with any experience is going to question both of your pieces just because of size, material, and pristine condition. Pieces like that are one in a million finds and not releasing the full info will just shed more doubt on them. If you want to get our trust, then trust us with the info on the COA.

 

[mogi]

With all due respect - Even with those multiple C.O.A.'S and the authenticators giving their approval, you would still need to express your opinion if they are correct or are you. I am not here to seek approvals, but to share some very beautiful artifacts. The choice to accept them is up to you. respectfully!

 

[Charl]

With all due respect - Even with those multiple C.O.A.'S and the authenticators giving their approval, you would still need to express your opinion if they are correct or are you. I am not here to seek approvals, but to share some very beautiful artifacts. The choice to accept them is up to you. respectfully!

Well, I do think it's your right to share whatever info you chose, and withhold any info you chose. I think people were at first dancing around their natural skepticism. Long term experience does indeed cause red flags, but who wants to say "hey buddy, I doubt those are ancient". Nobody wants to start off that way. Once in a lifetime is not impossible, there are some amazing genuine pieces out there. And if you're fine with skepticism, that's cool too.

All the artifact forums try to minimize the number of modern pieces presented, because they should always be called out on a site that presents genuine ancient artifacts. So, that means at times, especially when things look like the ole "too good to be true" category, members may introduce their honest doubts, and seek info that might potentially assuage those doubts and help change doubt to a belief a particular piece is likely ancient after all. Or not.

But, you are right in simply noting the call to believe or not to believe is ours. We cannot hold other people's pieces, or put them under a scope. We cannot become detectives and research the stories and history of a piece presented. And it's important to not let things get ugly. There are far more important issues in life. As for authenticators, some have good reps, and some not so much. So sometimes knowing who might swing one way, or swing the other way.

Anyway, the conversation that broke out here simply stems from the skepticism born of long experience and born of knowing there are at least as many fakes as genuine when the quality that presents is jaw dropping. Those conversations will never go away completely, nor should they, because it's important to winnow out modern, if it is possible. But, remaining civil, and accepting what people want to share is important as well...