Serated Points ?????

[monsterrack]

I have always had my on opinion on serated points. Some believe they were for better cutting, like for a spear or knife. I don't think that is correct, I believe that they were tools made to help strip plant fiber down to use for rope and twine maybe to strip thin leather down for twine. I stand on this thought because there is no sharper edge than a fresh chip stone and if used on a tool to try an enter animal flesh the serrations would drag causing the point not to penetrate as deep. I would like to hear other members thoughts on this type of point.

 

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[zerry]

I'm wondering if it was so it ripped up more flesh as the animal ran with it in them, causing more bleeding and insuring they could find the animal.

 

[Tnmountains]

I think your theory makes sense having harvested animals with a bow. Plus a lot of those heavy serrations show up during the atlatl times when it would have been harder to stick something. Wonder how this thinking effects points like pine trees?

 

[bone2stone]

I'm wondering if it was so it ripped up more flesh as the animal ran with it in them, causing more bleeding and insuring they could find the animal.

Absolutely, every time the creature swiped a bush while running, the arrow shaft would allow a slash inside the prey.
Rip it's internals to shreds like the afore mention leather only worse.
As far as penetration, every barb has its independent cutting edge. As the point penetrates it rips a little wider path and once
below the external hide, you got "Got em".
The native culture were very opportunistic should the need arise and they had that serrated point or blade
to do a specific job, so be it.
The serrations I have observed were from the very delicate finely crafted to a crudely serrated edge with deep serrations.
Some will start out at the tip with fine serrations and work down to deeper edge cut and more profound barbs.
Many cultures across a vast time period have use this manufacturing technique for many reasons.

"monsterack"
I am assuming this point belongs to you
Serrations were largely a matter of preference, besides it just downright looks so wicked with outstanding serrations like the Dalton picture.

Jess B.

 

[old digger]

I have always considered serrated points would be most beneficial in harvesting game birds. Also they may have been more beneficial in getting fish.

 

[newnan man]

I have serrated points that are so small I don't think they were tools just arrowheads. On bigger blades that theroy makes sense.

 

[mn9000]

Question: Did serrated edges make an appearance during a certain era then phase back out during a certain later era? Or have they always been around & used by different cultures throughout history?

 

[SweepNbeep]

I'm thinking they are arrowheads as well, simply because they look as though they would be attached to an arrow shaft. That wouldn't make much sense for stripping wood. But I see your point. In a modern arrowhead design (broad head) the surgicaly sharp blades all but assure a complete pass through with a well placed shot. That does massive damage to vital organs, and creates two blood channels. Given the velocity of ancient bows, I think that would have been virtually impossible with even the best made arrowheads. So, I think the theory that serration was meant to cause additional internal damage on a wounded, running animal makes a lot of sense. I'm not an Indian expert per say, but I have killed over a dozen deer with a bow, so I've got some clue about how it all works.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Question: Did serrated edges make an appearance during a certain era then phase back out during a certain later era? Or have they always been around & used by different cultures throughout history?

To answer your question I guess would say....yes, it did appear during a certain culture, the early to mid Archaic. It then phased out and pretty much disappeared during the Hopewell and Adena periods. But the it reappeared during the Ft Ancient culture but even then just on certain sites. I have FA sites I hunt where you fidn all kinds of Serrated Triangles and sites where you find none. As far as their function, I have always believed they were used to penetrate and then rip the flesh as the animal thrashed about causing more damage.

 

[Tnmountains]

Serrated Lecroy's and certain Daltons would have been atalatal not bow right? The bow was a late comer .

 

[CHUDs]

More sharp surface area on a serrated blade...but also has utility in different manner as well

 

[joshuaream]

My apologies for a very wordy answer. There have been a decent number of studies on serrations vs strait edges, and I think it varies between knives and projectile points, and then it varies with the animals hunted. Here are my thoughts:

For true projectile points. There are number of potential advantages to serrations but on deer and elk sized targets the combination of a decent bow, a good arrow shaft and an experienced hunter will outweigh any differences between a bone arrowhead, a straight edge stone point, a serrated stone point, a larger or smaller point, or even a fire hardened pointed arrow shaft. The modern equivalent would be an experienced hunter with a decently powerful rifle they know and know how to shoot. A friend of mine here in Florida has probably taken a couple hundred hogs with a bolt action 30-06 on his farm over the years. It isn’t going to make a bit of difference if he shoots a 50 cent bullet or a $5 bullet on a hog inside of 75 yards.

A serrated point has more cutting edge which is good. A serrated point can be wider than straightedge point of the same weight, and that equals a bigger hole which can be good. (It also means less penetration, so depending on the animal that might not be good.) I’ve also seen some interesting impact fractures on serrated points that might suggest that bigger serrations help an arrow glance off bone better while continuing on a slightly altered trajectory. (The serration breaks along the side, but the point doesn’t shatter.)

I’ve had a lot of chats about the serrations cutting up the animal as the arrow moves as the animal runs. I think again it probably depends on the animal. Deer tend to bed down within 200 yards or so of being shot if they aren’t being chased, so for them the shot is usually a kill shot or not after the initial impact. Elk will run more, but I think natives used dogs a lot more than we would during hunting so they could probably track the animal faster. (Give it a shot to die before they tracked it, but they had to risk pushing the animal further than we do today. If they didn’t recover it within hours, wolves and other animals would get it.) In either case, counting on the arrowhead to cut up internal organs or arteries probably doesn’t make much of a difference on shorter hunts.

It might have made a huge difference to plains hunters taking multiple atlatl shots on multiple bison from a distance. I think they were simply trying to hit a couple of animals broad side (gut shots welcome) and had days’ worth of open plains to track them. Maybe it was also a big deal to Clovis hunters taking down hairy elephants with multiple shots.

All of that said, I think most serrations were aesthetic, they look good.

For true knives, I think there is a component of the cutting edge, durability, and loss of material when resharpening. The high points on a serrated knife can get dull, and the knife still has cutting power because the cutting edge on the inside can still be sharp and protected. Most groups still butchered big animals and bulk kills with strait edge bladelets because you get so much more cutting edge out of a cobble of material, but a serrated biface was probably more versatile on a solo hunt. It would also work for other stuff like scraping bark off wood for kindling and other tools uses like that (what Monsterrack mentioned), and it would get through bones and joints better. (A little more swiss army knife like.) That said, the big benefit was probably that you lose less material when resharpening the knife by serrating it. If you want to quickly resharpen a knife, you can just take pressure flakes skipping spaces and you get a sharp edge quickly without reducing the width of the knife much. A bevel is a better edge, but it reduces the width more. A bifacial resharpening job reduces the width even more. Again, like points there seems to come a point where some groups liked the look of serrations because they put them on patterns and even over worked them so they would be more prominent.

For early archaic points that were probably darts and knives, serrations were more versatile and they were hitting smaller game with a very powerful projectile, so the knife like benefits didn't hurt the projectile part of the equation.

 

[RGINN]

Here's some serrated points along with two side notch points that all date back to the Custer Phase in SW Oklahoma, about 800 to 1200 years ago. (Not a great pic, sorry) I heard a few times the serrated ones were 'fish points' and the side notch were the ever popular 'bird points'. Most likely not true on either count. My idea was that the serrated ones created a more jagged entry wound which would facilitate bleeding out a little quicker. I do believe the ones I've shown were projectile points and not hand tools.

 

[monsterrack]

View attachment 1454100 Here's some serrated points along with two side notch points that all date back to the Custer Phase in SW Oklahoma, about 800 to 1200 years ago. (Not a great pic, sorry) I heard a few times the serrated ones were 'fish points' and the side notch were the ever popular 'bird points'. Most likely not true on either count. My idea was that the serrated ones created a more jagged entry wound which would facilitate bleeding out a little quicker. I do believe the ones I've shown were projectile points and not hand tools.

Reginn what do you call that point with the double notch on one side? It's very neat and I have never seen that in a bird point.

 

[Engineer in MD]

Would the serrated points not have a tendency to stay in the animal longer than just a sharp edge? Sort of like barbs. I always thought that for animals that take off after being shot, the serrated point stayed in longer and caused more damage as has already been mentioned here.

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[The Grim Reaper]

This E-Notch Thebes is a personal find and in my mind most likely a Knife. It is very heavily serrated from a resharpening and I can see someone cutting meat off of a kill with this.

 

[newnan man]

Love those Thebes! That's a really nice one.

 

[RGINN]

Reginn what do you call that point with the double notch on one side? It's very neat and I have never seen that in a bird point.

That's so you could switch from a projectile point to a corner tang knife in a jiffy. haha, just kidding! That is different notching than the norm in Washita points, but we've found them with extra notching, as much as three. Always on one side. Just a WAG, it might be something to do with the arrow maker didn't feel like the point was attached securely to the shaft with two notches, or maybe just the balance didn't feel right, and that was a way to compensate. And also might be a little far-fetched, but could be a marketing technique of that particular point maker, including an extra notch.