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Thread: Show me the Clovis!

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  1. #16
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    I'm pretty sure the site Josuha is referring to is in South America.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper View Post
    I'm pretty sure the site Josuha is referring to is in South America.
    I think Venezuela. And the other person in Joshua's photo is Bruce Bradley. So the two authors of Across Atlantic Ice, and leading proponents of the Solutrean hypothesis.

  3. #18
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    Yep, the very northern most point of South America. It's not new, but still "new-ish" is the idea of Clovis around the Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico basin. Basically Florida, Texas Coast, Yucatan, Costa Rica, Panama, & Venezuela have similar Clovis sites, and given a better understanding of sea levels, there was a lot of open savannah land out on the continental shelf and a density of megafauna that would have likely attracted early Americans.

    This site, and the points pictured have been documented and referenced numerous times in journals and publications. Some of the items are with Mike Waters, Stanford and Bradley have casts of many of the artifacts.

    The picture was just to show some artifacts and archaeologists, not divert the thread. I know there are other members here who can post up their clovis points.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptsofnc View Post
    Yes. I recognize Dennis Stanford in the pictures, have read some of his books, and watched his presentations. But my question is did they conclude that the some of the tools were clovis (not archaic or later) simply because they were found in association with the clovis points? Is there something specific about the flaking, shape, material, etc that led the archeologists to call them clovis tools even if they didn't find any clovis points?
    On this particular site, aside from one long bladelet that Bradley said wasn't Clovis technology, everything else fits a very specific pattern of a Clovis quarry site. The site is on the side of a hill in the desert, and I believe that it's all related to the same group of people who visited the area to quarry stone and replenish tools. Lots of broken bifaces, fluting failures, heavily used and discarded tools, overshot flakes, core set ups, etc.

    To answer your bigger question, yes there are a lot of archaeologists comfortable identifying Clovis workmanship without seeing a finished point. The way they made and maintained cores is very unique. Their use of overshots isn't unique, but the size and frequency of controlled overshots is rather unique. The way they set up platforms and some of their flake mechanics can be diagnostic when combined with other traits.

  5. #20
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    I think the Solutrian theory is bogus and I'll tell you why. The Solutrians had the bow and arrow. The got it from N. Africa. If they had the bow and arrow, why didn't they bring it with them to the new world? Gary

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddsPoint View Post
    I think the Solutrian theory is bogus and I'll tell you why. The Solutrians had the bow and arrow. The got it from N. Africa. If they had the bow and arrow, why didn't they bring it with them to the new world? Gary
    Can you show a link with evidence of that? I searched and couldn't find anything confirming that statement.
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  7. #22
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    I'm having a tough time establishing a link between Solutrean(it's a technology, not a people) tool kit and the bow and arrow as well. I personally know nada about the development of the bow and arrow, but you can certainly find articles and discussions revolving around the question of how old bow and arrow technology is online. I did find this, one of many articles, blog entries, and board discussions.


    A Very Remote Period Indeed: The origins of bow and arrow technology:


    "Archaeologically, we have no unambiguous evidence for bows or arrows predating the latest Upper Paleolithic or even the Mesolithic. However, we also have no spearthrowers older than the one from the Solutrean occupation of Combe-Saunière (France), which dates to ca. 21,000 BP. This is in spite of now having abundant evidence that suggests that some pointed stone tools likely were used as dart tips much earlier than that date (Shea 2006). Thus, not having found remains of bows or arrows prior to the latest Upper Paleolithic does not de facto preclude their existence before that time."


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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddsPoint View Post
    I think the Solutrian theory is bogus and I'll tell you why. The Solutrians had the bow and arrow. The got it from N. Africa. If they had the bow and arrow, why didn't they bring it with them to the new world? Gary
    Gary, I too would be curious about any references to bow & arrow use by the Solutrean. Most of what I have seen is much too large for a true arrowhead (4” long bifaces or greater.) At the small end most of them still seem too large.

    Small Laurel-Leaf Point From Laugerie Haute

    I am not a fan of a direct Solutrean-Clovis lineage simply because of the gap in the timeline and the lack of more sites.
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  9. #24
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    As far as what is known to professional archaeologists, only one true Clovis point, of the Ross County variety, is known from the New England states. It was found by a TNet member and described in this thread:

    CLOVIS! My Oldest Find EVER!

    It was also written up for the online journal of the American Society of Amateur Archaeology(ASAA):

    http://asaa-persimmonpress.com/doc/E...icut-River.pdf

    A few years ago, I photographed some interesting fluted points found at the Sugarloaf site in Deerfield, Ma. The fluted points found there are of the Bull Brook fluted point type.

    This one is the largest fluted point known from New England. It is unfinished, and rhyolite. It was also broken when heavy farm equipment drove over the spot where it was buried:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Something you don't see every day. Many channel flakes were found at Sugarloaf, and some could be fit with the actual fluted points they were detached from. I believe the material is Normanskill. Bull Brook fluted point, somewhat later in age then true Clovis...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Charl; Apr 16, 2018 at 10:37 AM.

  10. #25
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    Show me the Clovis!

    So those of you that think Solutrian theory is bogus is there a different theory you believe in or just don’t believe that theory due to lack of evidence?
    Btw Charl those are some great pics and info
    Last edited by arrow86; Apr 16, 2018 at 10:47 AM.
    The Grim Reaper and Charl like this.
    I would rather see an authentic broken scraper posted than a G-10 Artifake!

  11. #26
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    There were a couple of guys who used to set up at our local artifact show that had found a Paleo only site somewhere in the southwestern section of the state of Kentucky. They kept the site secret for quite some and were the only two hunting it and the Paleo artifacts they found were amazing. From huge Bifaces to finished Clovis Points and everything in between. The amount of Tools was astounding. They too though found Channel Flakes that they actually fit back into finished Points found on site. I wish I could recall their names. I think one of them was a member here for a while.
    "Welcome back my friends, to the show that never ends."

  12. #27
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    mudman

    Feb 2017
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    Here is mine beat up as it is a personal find from warren county TN Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper View Post
    Can you show a link with evidence of that? I searched and couldn't find anything confirming that statement.
    Sure. Get a book called "Man the Tool Maker" by Kenneth Oakley. Oakley is (was?) a professor at a university in England. It's a small paperbook book and probably not expensive. Deals with Europe and N. Africa. My copy is loaned out presently. He says the Solutrians got the bow from the Amarans(?) or Amerians(?) (can't remember the spelling) in N. Africa, what is now Morocco. Once you have the bow and arrow, you ain't givin' it up. Sorry. Gary

  14. #29
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    Ones mans theory or book is not proof.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddsPoint View Post
    Sure. Get a book called "Man the Tool Maker" by Kenneth Oakley. Oakley is (was?) a professor at a university in England. It's a small paperbook book and probably not expensive. Deals with Europe and N. Africa. My copy is loaned out presently. He says the Solutrians got the bow from the Amarans(?) or Amerians(?) (can't remember the spelling) in N. Africa, what is now Morocco. Once you have the bow and arrow, you ain't givin' it up. Sorry. Gary
    Actually that is a great book written by one of Anthropology’s great minds. It was really advanced for the 1950’s. There was a lot that wasn’t known then that is widely documented now. I’m pretty sure that Oakley himself did some of the later work on Proto-Solutreans.

 

 
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