Show me the Clovis!

[SportsmanAll]

Always been really interested in the Clovis points. If you have been lucky enough to find some Let’s see them!!

 

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[The Grim Reaper]

I think the Solutrian theory is bogus and I'll tell you why. The Solutrians had the bow and arrow. The got it from N. Africa. If they had the bow and arrow, why didn't they bring it with them to the new world? Gary

Can you show a link with evidence of that? I searched and couldn't find anything confirming that statement.

 

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[Charl]

I'm having a tough time establishing a link between Solutrean(it's a technology, not a people) tool kit and the bow and arrow as well. I personally know nada about the development of the bow and arrow, but you can certainly find articles and discussions revolving around the question of how old bow and arrow technology is online. I did find this, one of many articles, blog entries, and board discussions.


A Very Remote Period Indeed: The origins of bow and arrow technology:


"Archaeologically, we have no unambiguous evidence for bows or arrows predating the latest Upper Paleolithic or even the Mesolithic. However, we also have no spearthrowers older than the one from the Solutrean occupation of Combe-Saunière (France), which dates to ca. 21,000 BP. This is in spite of now having abundant evidence that suggests that some pointed stone tools likely were used as dart tips much earlier than that date (Shea 2006). Thus, not having found remains of bows or arrows prior to the latest Upper Paleolithic does not de facto preclude their existence before that time."

 

[joshuaream]

I think the Solutrian theory is bogus and I'll tell you why. The Solutrians had the bow and arrow. The got it from N. Africa. If they had the bow and arrow, why didn't they bring it with them to the new world? Gary

Gary, I too would be curious about any references to bow & arrow use by the Solutrean. Most of what I have seen is much too large for a true arrowhead (4” long bifaces or greater.) At the small end most of them still seem too large.

Small Laurel-Leaf Point From Laugerie Haute

I am not a fan of a direct Solutrean-Clovis lineage simply because of the gap in the timeline and the lack of more sites.

 

[Charl]

As far as what is known to professional archaeologists, only one true Clovis point, of the Ross County variety, is known from the New England states. It was found by a TNet member and described in this thread:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/477701-clovis-my-oldest-find-ever.html

It was also written up for the online journal of the American Society of Amateur Archaeology(ASAA):

http://asaa-persimmonpress.com/doc/Evidence-Early-Clovis-Occupation-Middle-Connecticut-River.pdf

A few years ago, I photographed some interesting fluted points found at the Sugarloaf site in Deerfield, Ma. The fluted points found there are of the Bull Brook fluted point type.

This one is the largest fluted point known from New England. It is unfinished, and rhyolite. It was also broken when heavy farm equipment drove over the spot where it was buried:



Something you don't see every day. Many channel flakes were found at Sugarloaf, and some could be fit with the actual fluted points they were detached from. I believe the material is Normanskill. Bull Brook fluted point, somewhat later in age then true Clovis...

 

[arrow86]

So those of you that think Solutrian theory is bogus is there a different theory you believe in or just don’t believe that theory due to lack of evidence?
Btw Charl those are some great pics and info

 

[The Grim Reaper]

There were a couple of guys who used to set up at our local artifact show that had found a Paleo only site somewhere in the southwestern section of the state of Kentucky. They kept the site secret for quite some and were the only two hunting it and the Paleo artifacts they found were amazing. From huge Bifaces to finished Clovis Points and everything in between. The amount of Tools was astounding. They too though found Channel Flakes that they actually fit back into finished Points found on site. I wish I could recall their names. I think one of them was a member here for a while.

 

[tnmudman]

Here is mine beat up as it is a personal find from warren county TN

 

[ToddsPoint]

Can you show a link with evidence of that? I searched and couldn't find anything confirming that statement.

Sure. Get a book called "Man the Tool Maker" by Kenneth Oakley. Oakley is (was?) a professor at a university in England. It's a small paperbook book and probably not expensive. Deals with Europe and N. Africa. My copy is loaned out presently. He says the Solutrians got the bow from the Amarans(?) or Amerians(?) (can't remember the spelling) in N. Africa, what is now Morocco. Once you have the bow and arrow, you ain't givin' it up. Sorry. Gary

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Ones mans theory or book is not proof.

 

[joshuaream]

Sure. Get a book called "Man the Tool Maker" by Kenneth Oakley. Oakley is (was?) a professor at a university in England. It's a small paperbook book and probably not expensive. Deals with Europe and N. Africa. My copy is loaned out presently. He says the Solutrians got the bow from the Amarans(?) or Amerians(?) (can't remember the spelling) in N. Africa, what is now Morocco. Once you have the bow and arrow, you ain't givin' it up. Sorry. Gary

Actually that is a great book written by one of Anthropology’s great minds. It was really advanced for the 1950’s. There was a lot that wasn’t known then that is widely documented now. I’m pretty sure that Oakley himself did some of the later work on Proto-Solutreans.

 

[SportsmanAll]

This is a good one my friend sent me a pic of!

 

[The Grim Reaper]

That doesn't look like a Clovis from what I can see in that picture. Do you have more pictures?

 

[SportsmanAll]

That doesn't look like a Clovis from what I can see in that picture. Do you have more pictures?

I don’t. What else would it be? The flute was what made him think Clovis.

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Here's mine. 4 1/8" long, made of Normanskill Chert. Found in Northampton, MA. Has been identified as likely the oldest artifact ever found in New England. After I had it drawn and cast, I gave it to the landowner. In the photo is myself, the landowner, and Dr. R.M. Gramly

 

[mcb66]

Allendale Chert

 

[ToddsPoint]

Is Allendale chert from S.C.? Gary

 

[arrow86]

That’s a killer for sure .....You gave the original to the landowner ? Man that would be hard to part with but a good gesture for sure.

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

That’s a killer for sure .....You gave the original to the landowner ? Man that would be hard to part with but a good gesture for sure.

He was very happy to receive the point. He's allowed Dr. Gramly and I to conduct two other digs at the site. I've been fortunate enough to find several other likely Clovis artifacts there, but no more fluted points. I'll post pictures later this week.

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

That doesn't look like a Clovis from what I can see in that picture. Do you have more pictures?

I agree. It looks more like a knife with basal thinning. It doesn't have the concave base one expect to see with Clovis.

 

[SportsmanAll]

I agree. It looks more like a knife with basal thinning. It doesn't have the concave base one expect to see with Clovis.

Do you have access to other photos of similar items? He says it was found on one of his “kill sites” he assured me its a spear tip of some kind? But I don’t know anything!