Historic glass preform knife?

[Out Of Time]

Based on shape and what looks like edge-work, I think it might be.

Opinions, please.

 

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[ToddsPoint]

Looks like those are flake removals were done on purpose. Equal spacing. That doesn't happen in nature. Interesting piece. Maybe a preform that was discarded because it was too thick. Gary

 

[GaRebel1861]

I saw one found at a historic site that is similar but, was made of black glass. I believe that it was used as a scraper.

 

[sandchip]

I think it's probably just a result of implement damage. The only "flaking" is from just above the heart line of your palm to just below your third finger in the first picture. The equally spaced lines along the edge below that are just part of how the glass broke originally. I've found points that had very fresh, what looked like pressure flaking along a short space of the blade edge that more than likely were caught just right by a harrow. That would be my guess in this case, since everywhere on the piece looks like a broke piece of glass except for that 1/2" to 5/8" spot. Seeing it in person might make all the difference though.

 

[eyemustdigtreasure]

Good remarks so far.
I believe it is a happen-chance, genuine, native-made, (preform?)
where it was definitely scheduled for future modification, is my wild guess, also.
In all of my career as a Shovel Bum archaeologist, I have seen
Contact Period glass that was modified as tools, projectile points,
knives and spear points, even beads I heard were made from the stuff.
Still Contact Period glass is a rare object to find in the archaeological record.
So don't throw it away...! Good find!

 

[Out Of Time]

Great input.

I think what's true is this is a very old piece of glass.

It's 10mm thick!

 

[Jon Stewart]

I have one that looks similar as well.

 

[Out Of Time]

I think it's probably just a result of implement damage. The only "flaking" is from just above the heart line of your palm to just below your third finger in the first picture. The equally spaced lines along the edge below that are just part of how the glass broke originally. I've found points that had very fresh, what looked like pressure flaking along a short space of the blade edge that more than likely were caught just right by a harrow. That would be my guess in this case, since everywhere on the piece looks like a broke piece of glass except for that 1/2" to 5/8" spot. Seeing it in person might make all the difference though.

I'm glad to get your opinion on this and I give it serious weight.

I'm on the fence but wobbling toward it being an artifact.

It seems to me the thickness of the glass puts it in the time frame - say around 1875 or earlier back to contact.

There does seem to be a knife shape to it, including a hafting base (note it's symmetry).

The edge work is minimal and I agree with your analysis of it, except, perhaps, what made it.

Other areas to look at are the base, particularly the shoulder of the base on the blade side which looks like it might have been made burin style.

Add the that the five distinct strikes require to shape top side - including a conchoidal dimple (implying a purposeful strike) which my pictures don't show.

There are also signs of shaping on the tip.

Also, I found this in a creek bed, which though it doesn't preclude machine damage, makes it less likely than a field find.

Maybe I'm seeing more than is there but I'm sensing the hand of man.

Maybe, I'll try to post some better pics as you won't get the chance to see it in person.

 

[jamus peek]

I think it is worked. I find that thick glass worked to here in th Sf Bay area. I also find old ceramic pieces that look like knives and are bifacially worked.

Here are a couple of thick pieces i thought could be preforms as well. There is a lack of edgework but there are some flake scars on both sides of the edges

These may deem questionable i also find them in a creek and they remind me of your piece but your piece has some more obvious features so to me these 2 pieces are questionable.



This one looks more finished and has flake scars on both sides and a nice edge.


Possible scraper

Ceramic piece with a knife shape. It looks to be some obvious edgework on both sides.It has some French or some other type of European language on it.




I have some better ones ill post if you would like. Just saw some relation to your piece being the thick glass.

 

[Out Of Time]

I think it is worked. I find that thick glass worked to here in th Sf Bay area. I also find old ceramic pieces that look like knives and are bifacially worked.

Here are a couple of thick pieces i thought could be preforms as well. There is a lack of edgework but there are some flake scars on both sides of the edges

These may deem questionable i also find them in a creek and they remind me of your piece but your piece has some more obvious features so to me these 2 pieces are questionable.

View attachment 1754407
View attachment 1754408
This one looks more finished and has flake scars on both sides and a nice edge.
View attachment 1754411 View attachment 1754412
View attachment 1754413
Possible scraper
View attachment 1754414 View attachment 1754414 View attachment 1754415 View attachment 1754416
Ceramic piece with a knife shape. It looks to be some obvious edgework on both sides.It has some French or some other type of European language on it.
View attachment 1754417
View attachment 1754418
View attachment 1754419

I have some better ones ill post if you would like. Just saw some relation to your piece being the thick glass.

Those are very interesting and cool.

Distinct resemblance to my piece - but even more worn.

Personally, I think they are artifacts but I can see that there's room for debate.

Close, in-the-hand inspection tells you more than pictures.

It's remarkable how much wear these Californian creeks can inflict on material.

The one I hunt in Napa is small and seasonal but manages to wipe obsidian clean of flake scars.

Are you hunting by the bay? What are the creeks like there?

It's always interesting to see California artifacts (which seem a little under represented in this forum), so please post anything/everything.

 

[jamus peek]

Those are very interesting and cool.

Distinct resemblance to my piece - but even more worn.

Personally, I think they are artifacts but I can see that there's room for debate.

Close, in-the-hand inspection tells you more than pictures.

It's remarkable how much wear these Californian creeks can inflict on material.

The one I hunt in Napa is small and seasonal but manages to wipe obsidian clean of flake scars.

Are you hunting by the bay? What are the creeks like there?

It's always interesting to see California artifacts (which seem a little under represented in this forum), so please post anything/everything.

I hunt a few seasonal creeks in the East Bay one is on a winery that a family friend owns.

I do notice how water worn some of your finds are. I do not find Arrowheads at all. They are rare here. Lack of workable material i guess.Ill post a few picks of what i find here.

I like seeing your finds wish i could find some flaked tools. I do find knives and scrapers. Usually they are made of Basalt or Greenstone and pecked into shape sometimes also ground with edgework.

 

[sandchip]

..It seems to me the thickness of the glass puts it in the time frame - say around 1875 or earlier back to contact...Maybe, I'll try to post some better pics as you won't get the chance to see it in person.

The thickness of the glass is in no way an absolute indicator of early age. Not saying that it's not old, but neither can we say it isn't from the 1920s. Another aspect that really needs to be looked at in person. You sure you don't want to take a drive to south Georgia?

Not trying to shoot it down. I do hope that it is an artifact!

 

[unclemac]

guys...you should get to the beach more often....there is nothing posted here that i haven't seen busted up on the beach. The color of the glass (clear) is also an indication of youth not age...

 

[jamus peek]

guys...you should get to the beach more often....there is nothing posted here that i haven't seen busted up on the beach. The color of the glass (clear) is also an indication of youth not age...

I don't find flaked tools very often and I listen and respect your opinions when you speak. I have sent a few pieces to different people to get an in hand opinion. A lot of pieces i find are almost perfect circles with edge work all the way around.

Before i got into hunting Indian artifacts i would hunt bottles and glass. In creeks glass doesn't get busted up as much as pieces i find at the site i hunt. Most old broken glass pieces do not show any busted up edges at all the breaks are just like breaks you see from broken bottle glass that are recent.

As far as the age of the glass pieces including the original piece posted by Out of Time. The glass is well in line with glass that was worked by Natives here. Ishi was working glass in the early 1900's. Tribes had camps well into the 1900's here. So the Archaeology is a little different in California then the rest of the states.

Not at all trying to convince you on the above pieces or create a negative debate because the pieces are definitely debatable. Here are some other pieces that i have found in the same area. Aslo id be more then happy to send you some pieces to look at in hand.

It's hard in the pics to see the edge work but you have to admit it some are pretty knife like LOL! Also on all of the pieces above and below the busted up edges are only on what would be the cutting edge not the other sides. I can also show you the edges that are straight that have little chips like they were scored and snapped. I could be wrong.



There was a pic i tried to erase not sure if it will show up. Some how it found it's way without choosing it haha.

Have a good one UncleMac

 

[A2coins]

Pretty cool

 

[Jon Stewart]

My piece was found on the desert in the middle of nowhere. No beach in sight. But then again my piece is in a box with the rest of the worked pieces that i have found.

 

[arrow86]

Not sure there’s a way to prove that it wasn’t recently knapped by somebody trying to learn the skill

 

[jamus peek]

Not sure there’s a way to prove that it wasn’t recently knapped by somebody trying to learn the skill

In my opinion thats the real question who and when!!!

I can date the glass to late 1800's to early 1900's by the information like numbers that tell the age like the factory that made the glass and other revealing tells that bottle collectors would know. That doesnt mean though that they couldnt have been worked later.

Good point Arrow no pun intended.

 

[Out Of Time]

I don't find flaked tools very often and I listen and respect your opinions when you speak. I have sent a few pieces to different people to get an in hand opinion. A lot of pieces i find are almost perfect circles with edge work all the way around.

Before i got into hunting Indian artifacts i would hunt bottles and glass. In creeks glass doesn't get busted up as much as pieces i find at the site i hunt. Most old broken glass pieces do not show any busted up edges at all the breaks are just like breaks you see from broken bottle glass that are recent.

As far as the age of the glass pieces including the original piece posted by Out of Time. The glass is well in line with glass that was worked by Natives here. Ishi was working glass in the early 1900's. Tribes had camps well into the 1900's here. So the Archaeology is a little different in California then the rest of the states.

Not at all trying to convince you on the above pieces or create a negative debate because the pieces are definitely debatable. Here are some other pieces that i have found in the same area. Aslo id be more then happy to send you some pieces to look at in hand.

It's hard in the pics to see the edge work but you have to admit it some are pretty knife like LOL! Also on all of the pieces above and below the busted up edges are only on what would be the cutting edge not the other sides. I can also show you the edges that are straight that have little chips like they were scored and snapped. I could be wrong.

View attachment 1756101 View attachment 1756104 View attachment 1756107 View attachment 1756113 View attachment 1756115

There was a pic i tried to erase not sure if it will show up. Some how it found it's way without choosing it haha.

Have a good one UncleMac

I don't see much room for debate with these examples.

The work is obvious.

Historic glass artifacts.

I think these are exceptional examples too.

Love the range of size and shape.

Cool thing is that we can date these to within several hundred years without sophisticated scientific tests.

Poignent that these artifacts represent the last gasps of the traditional Native American way of life in Central California.

Fantastic finds, as far as I'm concerned.