Solutrian-Clovis Connection in Virginia - Page 2
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  1. #16

    Jun 2014
    California
    1,045
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    The points posted look just like the old stuff from out west a long walk which ever direction early man came from . My sisters had there DNA done we thought there would be strong western native American but to our surprise it was just as strong to first nations group Nova Scotia and Europe .

  2. #17
    us
    A very young old man

    Aug 2005
    Beautiful Florida
    1,672
    2357 times
    Relic Hunting
    I never understood although I admit I have not done a lot of thinking on the issue why people try to fit the population of the American continents into a neat small time frame. Think of the thousands of miles of shoreline from the top of N. America to the tip of S. America that could have been landed on by any number of groups of seafaring peoples. To say that is was one small specific group that found their way here and then in the course of a few thousand years became the widespread, various language, different culture types of NA's we know lived here to me is absurd.

  3. #18
    us
    Rock hunter

    May 2020
    East texas
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    876 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    The most important I formation I have gained from this thread so far is that the famous Painshill lives . great to know you are here sir. AlwYs a great resource on aology.
    uniface, Red-Coat, Charl and 1 others like this.

  4. #19
    us
    Banjo Man

    May 2019
    East Central Alabama
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    Relic Hunting
    Roger Geach if I remember correctly you bloody Red-Coat! Hope that is grammatically correct by British standards! It's good enough for Alabama red necks! Glad to know you're still kicking buddy and I'm happy to see you here!
    Last edited by Tdog; Aug 02, 2020 at 11:11 AM.
    uniface and Red-Coat like this.

    Savant Banjo Picker

  5. #20
    us
    Oct 2010
    Georgia
    Teknetics T2SE
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Tdog View Post
    Roger Geach if I remember correctly you bloody Red-Coat! Hope that is grammatically correct by British standards! It's good enough for Alabama red necks! Glad to know you're still kicking buddy and I'm happy to see you here!
    I'll say. His expertise was priceless in helping me with a white man pipe that I found in a creek.
    Red-Coat likes this.

  6. #21
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by uniface View Post
    Redcoat --

    Happily surprised that the venerable Painshill's been here all this time !

    Glad to see (recognise) you.

    Kray --
    Quote Originally Posted by Garscale View Post
    The most important I formation I have gained from this thread so far is that the famous Painshill lives . great to know you are here sir. AlwYs a great resource on aology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tdog View Post
    Roger Geach if I remember correctly you bloody Red-Coat! Hope that is grammatically correct by British standards! It's good enough for Alabama red necks! Glad to know you're still kicking buddy and I'm happy to see you here!
    Quote Originally Posted by sandchip View Post
    I'll say. His expertise was priceless in helping me with a white man pipe that I found in a creek.

    Thanks guys and good to catch up with some old names.

    Yes, I'm Roger (although not Roger Geach, whoever that is). I use various screen names on other forums... not for the purpose of identity concealment, but to help me manage email correspondence from various sources.

    Reports of my death were greatly exaggerated. I retired and then took a sabbatical for a few years to do some globe-trekking, including some rather remote locations, but have been back on arrowheads.com as 'painshill' for a little while now.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Tdog, welsbury and Charl like this.

  7. #22
    us
    Banjo Man

    May 2019
    East Central Alabama
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    1966 times
    Relic Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Red-Coat View Post
    Yes, I'm Roger (although not Roger Geach, whoever that is).
    I guess a man's memory IS the 2nd thing to go!!!
    Red-Coat and joshuaream like this.

    Savant Banjo Picker

  8. #23
    us
    Jun 2009
    Florida & Hong Kong
    2,782
    3284 times
    There is a decent paper to read for those who are interested in Solutrean materials, decent pictures. It's available with a gmail account on academia.edu as part of a collection of papers (it's one of a bunch of papers bundled into a book about bifaces.)

    It's very long title, but cut and past this into google and you'll find it:
    SOLUTREAN LAUREL LEAF POINT PRODUCTION AND RAW MATERIAL PROCUREMENT

    The more that I look at a broader spectrum of Solutrean material, the less I see Clovis technology and the less some of the one off US examples look obviously Solutrean. Individually you can pair them up and show similarities and explain away some differences, but if the sample is big enough they just don't look as clearly Solutrean as Bradley and Stanford thought they looked. (You could cherry pick a range of bifaces from Texas and the Great Basin and find a few that are similar.)

    Part of the journey of learning I guess, big theories force people to rethink old thoughts. Years from now we may find irrefutable evidence that hundreds of different migrations happened over a very long span of time.

  9. #24
    us
    Mar 2018
    Todds Point, IL
    2,661
    4858 times
    Metal Detecting
    In his book, "Man the Toolmaker", Kenneth Oakley shows drawings of Solutrean artifacts. Included is a drawing of a Solutrean arrowpoint. Yes, according to Oakley the Solutreans had the bow and arrow, obtained from N. Africa. If this is so, Stanford and Bradley can't be correct. If Solutreans came to N. America, they would have brought their bows and arrows. No evidence of that as of yet or, until someone proves Oakley wrong. Gary
    Red-Coat likes this.

  10. #25
    us
    Jan 2012
    Rhode Island
    2,758
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    Relic Hunting
    One can see some of the East coast bipoints at the start of this thread, including a broken one, both pieces, that was said to be made of flint from France. Photos by joshuaream....

    https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/...picture-thread
    Red-Coat, joshuaream and welsbury like this.

  11. #26
    us
    Jan 2014
    Maryland's Eastern Shore
    Garrett GTI 2500, (Ace 250 spare)
    877
    981 times
    Prehistoric artifacts, metal detecting, bottle digging
    I loaned my copy of "Across Atlantic Ice" to an artifact hunting buddy several years ago, and have not seen it since, so am just speaking from distant memory now at best. From what I remember there was at least a several thousand year gap between the proposed height of the Solutrean culture in western Europe, and the proposed age of the bi-points being found along the mid-Atlantic seaboard. If the western European Solutrean material and the mid-Atlantic bi-point material are actually related, I would naturally expect there to have been some morphological changes of some sort, over such an expanse of time and space.
    The argument regarding the significantly pre-Clovis age of the Cinimar blade seems sound to me, at least as sound as can be expected in light of the history of the find. More significant and impressive to me are the in situ and stratified finds at the site on Parsons Island. Most folks arguing against the easily pre-Clovis proposed age of these bi-points seem to be unaware of, or intentionally avoiding discussion of the finds on Parson's Island for some reason. I would be interested in hearing diverse thoughts regarding that site. I am open to the thought that some Solutreans' or similar peoples came here, but not convinced by any means.
    As many others have said, I suspect there were probably several diverse groups of peoples who visited or occupied what we now call the America's, long before an ice free "land bridge" opened up in the northwest, allowing the mass invasion that contributed to the demise of the earlier groups.
    Red-Coat, Garscale and uniface like this.

  12. #27
    us
    Rock hunter

    May 2020
    East texas
    472
    876 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    I have no doubt there was a well established population in The Americas when Clovis technology was introduced. The design worked for huge game and quickly spread through an existing group of cultures.

  13. #28
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    2,032
    717 times
    Paleoindian-Early Archaic tools
    according to Oakley the Solutreans had the bow and arrow, obtained from N. Africa. If this is so, Stanford and Bradley can't be correct. If Solutreans came to N. America, they would have brought their bows and arrows. No evidence of that as of yet or, until someone proves Oakley wrong. Gary
    Objection, Your Honor.

    Bows are advantageous in forests/thicker brush not condusive to using atlatls. For hunting seals, not so -- without a cable attached to a barbed head to retreive them (not feasible with arrows), they sink & are lost. Bows aren't suited to harvesting moulting/flightless sea birds. &c. &c.

    What doesn't get used gets dropped.
    newnan man likes this.
    "[T]o silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." -- JBR Yant

    "Take heart from Noam Chomsky, who wrote that nothing in the social sciences cannot be understood by the average bus driver in a couple of minutes this is not calculus or physics, after all." -- Ramin Mazaheri

  14. #29
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    2,032
    717 times
    Paleoindian-Early Archaic tools
    The more that I look at a broader spectrum of Solutrean material, the less I see Clovis technology and the less some of the one off US examples look obviously Solutrean. Individually you can pair them up and show similarities and explain away some differences, but if the sample is big enough they just don't look as clearly Solutrean as Bradley and Stanford thought they looked.
    I believe their case rests on technological -- not morphological -- similarity/identity.
    joshuaream likes this.
    "[T]o silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." -- JBR Yant

    "Take heart from Noam Chomsky, who wrote that nothing in the social sciences cannot be understood by the average bus driver in a couple of minutes this is not calculus or physics, after all." -- Ramin Mazaheri

  15. #30
    us
    Jun 2009
    Florida & Hong Kong
    2,782
    3284 times
    Quote Originally Posted by uniface View Post
    I believe their case rests on technological -- not morphological -- similarity/identity.
    I get that. But with some understanding of the technology they spelled out, and having seen many of the pieces involved, I'm sticking with I'm less convinced the more I learn. (I've got the book, autographed and all.)

    Again, I think the big idea and theory helped firmly open the door to a lot of other ideas, and that alone is worthy of adulation and praise.
    Aurora1959 likes this.

 

 
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