Solutrian-Clovis Connection in Virginia

[uniface]

Ran into this just now, bopping around. Apparently, these were recovered from underwater by a collector in Matthews County, Virginia.

Stuff is mind boggling !!!!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/va/mobjackrelics/trimble/ttasolutrean.html

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[Red-Coat]

Redcoat --

Happily surprised that the venerable Painshill's been here all this time !

Glad to see (recognise) you.

Kray --

The most important I formation I have gained from this thread so far is that the famous Painshill lives . great to know you are here sir. AlwYs a great resource on aology.

Roger Geach if I remember correctly you bloody Red-Coat! Hope that is grammatically correct by British standards! It's good enough for Alabama red necks! Glad to know you're still kicking buddy and I'm happy to see you here!

I'll say. His expertise was priceless in helping me with a white man pipe that I found in a creek.

Thanks guys and good to catch up with some old names.

Yes, I'm Roger (although not Roger Geach, whoever that is). I use various screen names on other forums... not for the purpose of identity concealment, but to help me manage email correspondence from various sources.

Reports of my death were greatly exaggerated. I retired and then took a sabbatical for a few years to do some globe-trekking, including some rather remote locations, but have been back on arrowheads.com as 'painshill' for a little while now.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Minelab PRO-FIND 35 Waterproof Pinpointer Metal Detector for Experts with Tone ID & Adjustable Sensitivity - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tdog]

Yes, I'm Roger (although not Roger Geach, whoever that is).

I guess a man's memory IS the 2nd thing to go!!!

 

[joshuaream]

There is a decent paper to read for those who are interested in Solutrean materials, decent pictures. It's available with a gmail account on academia.edu as part of a collection of papers (it's one of a bunch of papers bundled into a book about bifaces.)

It's very long title, but cut and past this into google and you'll find it:
SOLUTREAN LAUREL LEAF POINT PRODUCTION AND RAW MATERIAL PROCUREMENT

The more that I look at a broader spectrum of Solutrean material, the less I see Clovis technology and the less some of the one off US examples look obviously Solutrean. Individually you can pair them up and show similarities and explain away some differences, but if the sample is big enough they just don't look as clearly Solutrean as Bradley and Stanford thought they looked. (You could cherry pick a range of bifaces from Texas and the Great Basin and find a few that are similar.)

Part of the journey of learning I guess, big theories force people to rethink old thoughts. Years from now we may find irrefutable evidence that hundreds of different migrations happened over a very long span of time.

 

[ToddsPoint]

In his book, "Man the Toolmaker", Kenneth Oakley shows drawings of Solutrean artifacts. Included is a drawing of a Solutrean arrowpoint. Yes, according to Oakley the Solutreans had the bow and arrow, obtained from N. Africa. If this is so, Stanford and Bradley can't be correct. If Solutreans came to N. America, they would have brought their bows and arrows. No evidence of that as of yet or, until someone proves Oakley wrong. Gary

 

[Charl]

One can see some of the East coast bipoints at the start of this thread, including a broken one, both pieces, that was said to be made of flint from France. Photos by joshuaream....

https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum...a/445015-paleoamerican-oddessy-picture-thread

 

[redbeardrelics]

I loaned my copy of "Across Atlantic Ice" to an artifact hunting buddy several years ago, and have not seen it since, so am just speaking from distant memory now at best. From what I remember there was at least a several thousand year gap between the proposed height of the Solutrean culture in western Europe, and the proposed age of the bi-points being found along the mid-Atlantic seaboard. If the western European Solutrean material and the mid-Atlantic bi-point material are actually related, I would naturally expect there to have been some morphological changes of some sort, over such an expanse of time and space.
The argument regarding the significantly pre-Clovis age of the Cinimar blade seems sound to me, at least as sound as can be expected in light of the history of the find. More significant and impressive to me are the in situ and stratified finds at the site on Parsons Island. Most folks arguing against the easily pre-Clovis proposed age of these bi-points seem to be unaware of, or intentionally avoiding discussion of the finds on Parson's Island for some reason. I would be interested in hearing diverse thoughts regarding that site. I am open to the thought that some Solutreans' or similar peoples came here, but not convinced by any means.
As many others have said, I suspect there were probably several diverse groups of peoples who visited or occupied what we now call the America's, long before an ice free "land bridge" opened up in the northwest, allowing the mass invasion that contributed to the demise of the earlier groups.

 

[Garscale]

I have no doubt there was a well established population in The Americas when Clovis technology was introduced. The design worked for huge game and quickly spread through an existing group of cultures.

 

[uniface]

according to Oakley the Solutreans had the bow and arrow, obtained from N. Africa. If this is so, Stanford and Bradley can't be correct. If Solutreans came to N. America, they would have brought their bows and arrows. No evidence of that as of yet or, until someone proves Oakley wrong. Gary

Objection, Your Honor.

Bows are advantageous in forests/thicker brush not condusive to using atlatls. For hunting seals, not so -- without a cable attached to a barbed head to retreive them (not feasible with arrows), they sink & are lost. Bows aren't suited to harvesting moulting/flightless sea birds. &c. &c.

What doesn't get used gets dropped.

 

[uniface]

The more that I look at a broader spectrum of Solutrean material, the less I see Clovis technology and the less some of the one off US examples look obviously Solutrean. Individually you can pair them up and show similarities and explain away some differences, but if the sample is big enough they just don't look as clearly Solutrean as Bradley and Stanford thought they looked.

I believe their case rests on technological -- not morphological -- similarity/identity.

 

[joshuaream]

I believe their case rests on technological -- not morphological -- similarity/identity.

I get that. But with some understanding of the technology they spelled out, and having seen many of the pieces involved, I'm sticking with I'm less convinced the more I learn. (I've got the book, autographed and all.)

Again, I think the big idea and theory helped firmly open the door to a lot of other ideas, and that alone is worthy of adulation and praise.

 

[Garscale]

I get that. But with some understanding of the technology they spelled out, and having seen many of the pieces involved, I'm sticking with I'm less convinced the more I learn. (I've got the book, autographed and all.)

Again, I think the big idea and theory helped firmly open the door to a lot of other ideas, and that alone is worthy of adulation and praise.

Same here. Got the autographed book as well.