Solutrian-Clovis Connection in Virginia
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  1. #1
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
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    Paleoindian-Early Archaic tools

    Solutrian-Clovis Connection in Virginia

    Ran into this just now, bopping around. Apparently, these were recovered from underwater by a collector in Matthews County, Virginia.

    Stuff is mind boggling !!!!!!

    http://www.angelfire.com/va/mobjackr...solutrean.html
    "[T]o silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." -- JBR Yant

    "Take heart from Noam Chomsky, who wrote that nothing in the social sciences cannot be understood by the average bus driver in a couple of minutes this is not calculus or physics, after all." -- Ramin Mazaheri

  2. #2
    us
    Oct 2010
    Georgia
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    Goosebumpin' good stuff to consider. Love 'em all, but that brown point, wow. If these things only had a "play" button.
    uniface and redbeardrelics like this.

  3. #3
    us
    Oct 2011
    Indiana
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    Relic Hunting
    Why?

  4. #4
    us
    A very young old man

    Aug 2005
    Beautiful Florida
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    I've seen a video showing Solutrean type points found in 40' of water off the Virginia coast along with Mastodon bones showing butchering marks. It was very interesting.
    uniface likes this.

  5. #5
    us
    Jan 2012
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    Yeah, those pieces from Small’s collection made the rounds, it’s been a number of years by now, by someone other than the finder attempting to sell them for big $$$. Now, newnan man may be talking about(or may not, but it sounds like it)the famous Cinmar blade, named after the scallop boat that dredged the blade and bones up. I forget the particulars now, but I recall some time after Stanford and Bradley made that find famous, and put the blade on the cover of “Across Atlantic Ice”, that the circumstances and exact location of the find became somewhat questionable. Not sure how that was resolved. Also, worth noting that two bipointed blades were recovered in digs in the Delmarva that were believed to be made of French flint. Stanford discounted the one that was found beneath a colonial chimney foundation, because of the possibility it had been brought over by the settler who built the homestead in question.
    Last edited by Charl; Aug 01, 2020 at 10:07 AM.

  6. #6
    us
    Jan 2012
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    https://www.andywhiteanthropology.co...er-laurel-leaf

    The author of the above mentions the points being hawked on “this forum”, but the link does not seem to load. But I’m sure this is the discussion and forum he is referring to, as I recall from when the discussion took place:

    https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/...rtifacts/page3

    Link above takes one to page 3, so you’ll have to go back to page 1 to see how that thread and pitch to sell the pieces progressed...

    In any event, there are other links(including a thread that discusses valid questions regarding the circumstances of the Cinmar blade recovery), and food for thought, regarding these artifacts, including the Cinmar blade, at the links I’m providing here....
    Last edited by Charl; Aug 01, 2020 at 10:09 AM.
    uniface and Red-Coat like this.

  7. #7
    us
    May 2019
    Central New York State
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    Dennis Stanford was a fine archeologist, but the DNA evidence does not support the Solutrean theory. It's time to put it away forever. Zillions of people have been chipping stone tools for zillions of years - there's bound to be a few stylistic coincidences. They are not proof of cultural connection.
    Pointblank likes this.

  8. #8
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
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    It is beyond self-evident by now that the relevant DNA evidence is selectively presented (Windover Bog, anyone ?) and selectively interpreted -- both in service of a political objective.

    In a trial, both sides argue their cases to the jury. You're trying to bypass that and jump directly to imposing your view. Which is, not to put too fine a point on it, trying to spread/amplify propaganda.

    When what is presented as "public discourse" is a loudspeaker/echo chamber serving one side, you're looking at propaganda.

    When the appeal (like yours) is based on the power of suggestion, it isn't science.

    When spreading it is transparent virtue-signaling, it isn't science.

    When the alternative view is supposed to be unthinkable because "it gives White racists support for their beliefs" (or any other consideration irrelevant to its truth or falsehood), it isn't science.
    Last edited by uniface; Aug 01, 2020 at 07:05 PM. Reason: typo
    redbeardrelics likes this.
    "[T]o silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." -- JBR Yant

    "Take heart from Noam Chomsky, who wrote that nothing in the social sciences cannot be understood by the average bus driver in a couple of minutes this is not calculus or physics, after all." -- Ramin Mazaheri

  9. #9
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    2,043
    732 times
    Paleoindian-Early Archaic tools
    PS: It's apparent you've never read Across Atlantic Ice, where your alleged "few stylistic coincidences" are catalogued and examined in detail (something like 30-odd of them, many of them UNIQUE to those two cultures, with the chance of their arising independently nil).
    MAMucker and redbeardrelics like this.
    "[T]o silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." -- JBR Yant

    "Take heart from Noam Chomsky, who wrote that nothing in the social sciences cannot be understood by the average bus driver in a couple of minutes this is not calculus or physics, after all." -- Ramin Mazaheri

  10. #10
    Charter Member
    us
    papa

    Feb 2017
    Georgetown, SC
    Fisher F75
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    Quote Originally Posted by uniface View Post
    Ran into this just now, bopping around. Apparently, these were recovered from underwater by a collector in Matthews County, Virginia.

    Stuff is mind boggling !!!!!!

    http://www.angelfire.com/va/mobjackr...solutrean.html
    This is interesting. The standard theory is the Bering land bridge, from what I've read. I never thought about coming across from Europe. It would be a whole different type of migration, but why not? Living on the ice, generation after generation, slowly moving westward, living from the sea. If all you know is ice and water, it's not a stretch of imagination. The time frame could have been tens, or hundreds of years to get here. Seems totally feasible to me.


    "And so the population was gradually led into the demoralising temptations of arcades, baths, and sumptuous banquets. The unsuspecting Britons spoke of such novelties as 'civilisation', when in fact they were only a feature of their enslavement." Tacitus, Roman Senator and Historian, written AD 98.

    The Bald Eagle photo...he/she posed for me, gave me it's best American look. I felt privileged to get the shot.

  11. #11
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Charl View Post
    https://www.andywhiteanthropology.co...er-laurel-leaf

    The author of the above mentions the points being hawked on “this forum”, but the link does not seem to load. But I’m sure this is the discussion and forum he is referring to, as I recall from when the discussion took place:

    https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/...rtifacts/page3

    Link above takes one to page 3, so you’ll have to go back to page 1 to see how that thread and pitch to sell the pieces progressed...

    In any event, there are other links(including a thread that discusses valid questions regarding the circumstances of the Cinmar blade recovery), and food for thought, regarding these artifacts, including the Cinmar blade, at the links I’m providing here....

    Hi Charlie

    That link contained within Andy White's blog didn't work because it was to the former 'Arrowheadology' site, taken down a while ago and no longer operational. The poster there was using the screen name "Stone".

    Your link to the 'arrowheads.com' site is for a similar discussion initiated there by "David Stone Sweet" and presumably the same person. I forget what screen name he was using, but as my moderator note says at the beginning of the thread, he was banned from the site. If my memory serves correct he then requested his name be removed from the user database, resulting in the remaining posts being assigned a default title of "Guest".

    As you will know, but others may not, I'm "painshill" in that discussion.
    uniface and Charl like this.

  12. #12
    Charter Member
    us
    papa

    Feb 2017
    Georgetown, SC
    Fisher F75
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    Metal Detecting
    And now that I've thought about it, I'll extend that idea. What if these were "Ice People," like Inuits, sort of? Generations of a people, that lived their entire lives on the sea ice. Had they followed the prey, all the way around, the maximum glaciation stopped around present Pennsylvania/New York, but the sea ice could very well have extended into the Virginia area. Looking at it that way, Solutreans could have very well been in the area. My reasoning as to the lack of DNA, is that these were Ice People, they only knew how to make their living on the ice, and a dry land existence may have been impossible to adapt to. They knew how to catch fish and kill seals, but taking down a mastodon might have been a bit much, out of their experience. They PREFERRED life on the ice. Just my random thoughts.


    "And so the population was gradually led into the demoralising temptations of arcades, baths, and sumptuous banquets. The unsuspecting Britons spoke of such novelties as 'civilisation', when in fact they were only a feature of their enslavement." Tacitus, Roman Senator and Historian, written AD 98.

    The Bald Eagle photo...he/she posed for me, gave me it's best American look. I felt privileged to get the shot.

  13. #13
    gb
    Dec 2019
    Surrey
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    2792 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    PS: That thread was from 5 years ago and there have been more recent discussions on the arrowheads.com site about the current state of play for a possible Solutrean connection in the light of subsequent research and analysis. Still nothing conclusive though, and neither Stanford nor Bradley would say any different.

  14. #14
    us
    Jun 2009
    Central Pennsylvania
    2,043
    732 times
    Paleoindian-Early Archaic tools
    Redcoat --

    Happily surprised that the venerable Painshill's been here all this time !

    Glad to see (recognise) you.

    Kray --

    They may well have preferred what they were used to, but when conditions changed, they obviously changed along with them. Had they not, people wouldn't find characteristic Clovis(-Solutrean) technology from coast to coast, and northern South America to Alaska.
    Last edited by uniface; Aug 01, 2020 at 03:02 PM.
    Red-Coat likes this.
    "[T]o silence a man is to pay him homage, for it is an acknowledgement that his arguments are both impossible to answer and impossible to ignore." -- JBR Yant

    "Take heart from Noam Chomsky, who wrote that nothing in the social sciences cannot be understood by the average bus driver in a couple of minutes this is not calculus or physics, after all." -- Ramin Mazaheri

  15. #15
    us
    Oct 2010
    Georgia
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    Living off the ice. Hard to imagine life without turnip greens and hoe cakes.

 

 
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