Laser Authentication???

[pickaway]

Well i see we now have a 100% way to tell if a piece is fake or not & get a exact age of piece at the same time?Any thoughts?Me i don't believe it...
http://www.wbreckinridge.com/LaserIntro

I came across a piece on ebay for sale hailing this breakthru piece was over 300 bucks already...

 

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[luckyinkentucky]

I don't buy it. I've heard a few people talking about it, but it doesn't make sense to me. How can it read the craftsmanship of a piece?

If it tells the difference in the age and density of the stone then it couldn't be used for authenticating. Just because all of the stones are about the same age.

I think this guy is just coming up with a 'snake oil' remedy for collectors. Give them something they don't understand, and feed them full of BS so they'll believe it.

If modern archaeologists don't have this technology, and haven't heard of it ..... it sounds like a con to me.

 

[lostlake88]

Ludicrous. This technology, if existant, would solve the great mystery of the sphinx. How old is the sphinx? Experts argue it could be 10,000 years old based on erosion patterns. If someone is going to buy this garbage from some hayseed with internet access shame on them. Don't you think the great minds of our scientific community would have revelutionized and broadcasted this technology all over the world? Gotta hand it to Joe and Bob from east boofu Kentucky for there miraculous developement in the name of science.

 

[luckyinkentucky]

...... Gotta hand it to Joe and Bob from east boofu Kentucky for there miraculous developement in the name of science.

.......revelutionized and broadcasted this technology all over the world?

As a matter of fact they're from Oklahoma !!! What's it with the Kentucky comments? Oh ... and it's revolutionized .... not "revelutionized" !

On another note ... notice at the bottom of the page where they discount Greg Perino's authentication. Pretty bad they pick on a guy that's not around to defend himself !!!

 

[Cannonman17]

You can age or authenticate black obsidian with something like this but as far as I know that's it. Black obsidian has some kind of mineral or element that oxidizes with time in a pretty consistant way so when you take piece of obsidian or the edge of an artifact you can actually see a line that shows how far inside the stone this mineral has oxidized and thus age it. On freshly flaked obsidian you can't see it as it goes up to the very edge, likewise if an artifact is made out of a surface vain of material the mineral may have already oxidized long past the point where the artifact was made from so it's certainly not fool proof by any means. I would have to beleive that it would also be possible with other stone, in fact I'm 100% SURE it's possible with at least some types and here's why- I think that probably most, if not all of us, at some point have noticed that on freshly broken pieces of blades or points the inside is not the same color as the outside. Now of course it's not true with all lithic material but a good many and it is more obvious on some than on others. That color differential comes with time and the oxidation of minerals in the stone. There is a form of Ryholite here in North central Wisconsin that was used off and on through perhistoric times that displays this property perfectly. Late Woodland period points made from it are typically pretty close to black, the older the piece is the lighter it becomes. I had the rare opportunity a few years ago to look at a CLASSIC scottsbluff point (about 6 inches!) made of this and it was so light grey in color that it was almost white! The piece was thin enough that this oxidation may have actually gone all the way through the material- needless to say nobody is going to snap it in half to find out but.. on other pieces I have seen it. They put in a cranberry bog not far from my house about ten years ago that was turning up some good archaic and woodland artifacts and my friend found a large blade snapped in half by the bulldozers, (made of the same Ryholite material) and the outside was a medium grey and that extended into the rock about 1/3 of the way and the very middle or core of it was still jet black. Now if a person came up with a way to measure how far the oxidation went into a piece it would probably work as being a pretty accurate way of dating- I know there are lots of other materials out there that have similar properties also..... of course it's all in theory since I have no clue how anybody could/would measure it with anything other than black obsidian which can easily be looked "into" by putting a light behind it... just some food for thought.

 

[pickaway]

Good read Cannonman, i didnt read much into but i think they said they were measuring the atomic level of each piece, just seems like if this was real it would garner a heck of alot of attention in archaeology world, like lostlake said it would be huge. Hopefully one day they'll figure out a way to tell a real from a fake 100%.

 

[luckyinkentucky]

Good read Cannonman, i didnt read much into but i think they said they were measuring the atomic level of each piece, just seems like if this was real it would garner a heck of alot of attention in archaeology world, like lostlake said it would be huge. Hopefully one day they'll figure out a way to tell a real from a fake 100%.

That's a good point Cannonman !

The only contradiction to your theory that I can come up with is ......

what about people who use chemicals to oxidize or patina an artifact? A lot of the chemicals are introduced in concentrated doses to mimic natural patina. SOme of them are the same chemicals used in nature. For instance, a lot of Kentucky Hornstone artifact "fakers" will place the piece under a concentrated 'Grow Light' to bleach the piece out or to add fake patina to a piece. As you know, Hornstone reacts differently to UV rays than some other chert types.

Another method used is introducing high levels of oxidized / rusty iron to a piece in concentrated amounts. This mimics high iron soil.

I have seen them do some strange things to points to pass them off. I have learned a lot by talking to a local authenticator who has opened my eyes to a whole new realm of people defrauding people for money !!!

 

[Atlantis0077]

Morning,

Where there is a buck to be made, someone will figure out a way to cheat. In times past artifacts weren't worth enough to bother....now that is not the case. I guess the only way to know with some degree of certainty is to dig the artifact yourself in an area that has never been tampered with...even then there is room for error.

Most of the spots I dig have never been touched by modern man so no chance of fakes entering the mix. I know some people don't have the luxury of finding their own points and if they want a collection must purchase it for themselves. The best advice I could give is let the buyer beware. If it looks too good to be true it probably is. Start off slow and build up. Purchase from reputable dealers with a return policy and above all study and learn all you can from experienced collectors.

Laser authentication would be great, but I would settle for accurate, affordable ground penetrating radar.

Happy Hunting,

Atlantis

 

[Rege-PA]

I think this guy is on the right track...a spectograph can tell alot about a rocks make up and identify minute particles that only occur with long periods of aging. Cannonmans correct about the patination process seeping into the rock, kind of like forming a rind on the outside. I understand that they have a computer program that has analyzed hundreds of authentic points and this is used as a data base to compare a new points characteristics.
As the data base gets larger the system will become more accurate. An authenticator basically does the same thing as to shape, flaking and patination, then makes a decision, this tool could go beyond those abilities without human mistakes. Just my opinion.

 

[Cannonman17]

Good read Cannonman, i didnt read much into but i think they said they were measuring the atomic level of each piece, just seems like if this was real it would garner a heck of alot of attention in archaeology world, like lostlake said it would be huge. Hopefully one day they'll figure out a way to tell a real from a fake 100%.

That's a good point Cannonman !

The only contradiction to your theory that I can come up with is ......

what about people who use chemicals to oxidize or patina an artifact? A lot of the chemicals are introduced in concentrated doses to mimic natural patina. SOme of them are the same chemicals used in nature. For instance, a lot of Kentucky Hornstone artifact "fakers" will place the piece under a concentrated 'Grow Light' to bleach the piece out or to add fake patina to a piece. As you know, Hornstone reacts differently to UV rays than some other chert types.

Another method used is introducing high levels of oxidized / rusty iron to a piece in concentrated amounts. This mimics high iron soil.

I have seen them do some strange things to points to pass them off. I have learned a lot by talking to a local authenticator who has opened my eyes to a whole new realm of people defrauding people for money !!!

I believe it's like other hobbies and their fakers like in coins or art or whatever the better the experts get the better the fakers get, it would just be an added tool for us to use and in a lot of respects already is because if somebody I don't know shows me their fantastic Ryholite clovis and it's black as midnight I'll already know it's a fake. For what it's worth I've seen fake points with fake Patina and many times you can still tell something isn't quite right... but once in a while they look good as gold. Back when I used to buy and sell a lot of 'heads I actually started experimenting with artificial patina, not to make and pass off my own, but rather to better equip myself or my eye I guess as to what to look for. I would knapp out points from local materials and exotic and do all sorts of things to them to see what effect it had, I would highly recamend everybody who can flintknapp their own points to try this as it can be a GREAT learning tool just like knapping itself is. Oh, and for the record, I made sure none of my experiment points made it out alive- I would bust them up when I done.

 

[PALEOMAN]

i met a guy once who liked the way river polished artifacts looked so he put all his finds in a rock tumbler. people are so weird.

 

[rocky]

I'll jump in with both feet.

This is a technology that is professionally accepted for authenticating gemstones. There is no relationship to measuring hydration on the surface of obsidian which is also an relatively accurate technology. Raman laser used for this purpose will gain acceptance over time based on the accuracy of the track record established. Fake patinas cannot fool the measurement. It will not work on everything but should work very well on silica based stone. The naysayers will primarily be the individuals who have sold or own reproductions that are being represented as old. There will be pain when a $30,000 relic is suddenly worth $30. It is an expensive test and will primarily be used on the higher priced relics.

I suggest you keep an open mind and a wait and see attitude.

The metal detectorists should follow this authentication evolution as well. One day it may be used to age Civil War and other metal relics that are commonly reproduced.

In the end it is much more rewarding to find your own artifact, but the game of collecting through purchase is fun in its own way. Its just a different kind of hunt with an education all its own.

ROCKY

 

[Rege-PA]

As this system becomes more common the price will drop and eventually affordable by all, but if you were buying a high end artifact, the current price could be a life saver. In the end the price of real artifacts will increase as the large amount of fakes are eliminated.

 

[lostlake88]

Laser Tech is used by the jewelers to measure angles of cuts. This is how they value gems based on artisanship. lasers measure distance, temperature and angles. They can transmit information like voice, 01001001, and elctrons-protons. I have never heard of any recent archeaology reports using a laser to date anything. The standard is still carbon based. Geologists don't use lasers either. How can a laser gather enough information to determine if an artifact is anciently made? It can't. The results are still just interperation by the reader and this is bad science. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Cannonman17]

Laser Tech is used by the jewelers to measure angles of cuts. This is how they value gems based on artisanship. lasers measure distance, temperature and angles. They can transmit information like voice, 01001001, and elctrons-protons. I have never heard of any recent archeaology reports using a laser to date anything. The standard is still carbon based. Geologists don't use lasers either. How can a laser gather enough information to determine if an artifact is anciently made? It can't. The results are still just interperation by the reader and this is bad science. Just my 2 cents.

It has nothing to do with a laser. Lasers work great for measuring angles of cuts and what not but that's not what this is about, furthermore it's not going to be some new archeology report, it's been known about, has been and is being used for a while now. It's actually good science.

 

[lostlake88]

I respect your opinion, but I simply disagree. "That color differential comes with time and the oxidation of minerals in the stone. (your qoute)" Minerals do not oxidize, only metals. Some minerals oxidize like hemitite, but high quality cryptocrystalline is basically glass. Dating a rock solely on it's patination tendencies is also bad science, patination is not oxidation, rather it is a "mineral" stain which can only occur through time. Mass is porous, therefore as long as a particle is more dense than the mass itself or obtains a particle smaller, there will be infiltration of material and mass. Kinda the same way planets formed. The application of the raman laser to the field of this hobby is mis-leading and spurious, therefore it is wrong without question in my opinion. Doesn't matter anyway. The collection and ownership of native american lithics will be outlawed. Check McCain's record. He sponsored Nagpra legislation countless times. Obama may even be worse, but lets see if even knows what an native american is, you would be amazed how generally ignorant that man is. The beauty of affermitive action is gleeming.

 

[Cannonman17]

I respect your opinion, but I simply disagree. "That color differential comes with time and the oxidation of minerals in the stone. (your qoute)" Minerals do not oxidize, only metals. Some minerals oxidize like hemitite, but high quality cryptocrystalline is basically glass. Dating a rock solely on it's patination tendencies is also bad science, patination is not oxidation, rather it is a "mineral" stain which can only occur through time. Mass is porous, therefore as long as a particle is more dense than the mass itself or obtains a particle smaller, there will be infiltration of material and mass. Kinda the same way planets formed. The application of the raman laser to the field of this hobby is mis-leading and spurious, therefore it is wrong without question in my opinion. Doesn't matter anyway. The collection and ownership of native american lithics will be outlawed. Check McCain's record. He sponsored Nagpra legislation countless times. Obama may even be worse, but lets see if even knows what an native american is, you would be amazed how generally --deleted-- that man is. The beauty of affermitive action is gleeming.

You're right about minerals/metals and oxidation, I was simply trying to speak in easily understandable terms, not write a thesis. None the less, METALS can and will oxidize at a given rate, while there are some factors that may have to be accounted for and the rate of oxidation would be different in all materials if it could be measured then a reasonable date could be gathered. Like the Ryholite I mentioned from just North of me a little bit- you find a way to measure how far the oxidation has penetrated the rock without having to damage it and I GUARENTEE I would be able to come up with a pretty accurate chart on the age vs. depth of oxidation. I know it for a fact because all the later pieces I find are still nearly black, all the older stuff is starting to lighten up and turn grey and the only Paleo piece I ever seen was nearly white. I don't think that's bad science at all. As far as this, "Mass is porous, therefore as long as a particle is more dense than the mass itself or obtains a particle smaller, there will be infiltration of material and mass. " I don't have a clue what you're talking about.