Assumptions, Technology and Date

[gjb]

I wonder if it’s generally appreciated that assumptions concerning the Money Pit might indicate a date range for the undertaking.

Maybe we talk too glibly about there having been a water trap at the Money Pit, and that this was a defensive measure. After all, the reason we fully understand the mechanics of such a trap is because we have 21st century educations, but, specifically, we understand this because our education is post-1700.

This means that depending on what you believe about the Money Pit, the originator’s education might also have to be post-1700, and the date of the operation would also have to be after this.

With respect to the assumed flood tunnel, then, it would be relevant to ask what the originator actually knew about air and water under pressure, rather than what would be merely assumed according to the Classical tradition.

This is to ask whether the originator’s knowledge was modern, that is, after the period 1650-1700, or if it was ancient, that is, prior to this?

For example, it’s assumed there was a flood tunnel at 110 feet, and a wooden ‘treasure’ platform at 104 feet. This means there was a gap of six feet in which air would be trapped when the water rose. What did the originator believe would happen to this air?

Did he know about air pressure?

Did he know that the trapped air would even be under pressure, and by how much, and by what proportion this volume of air might be reduced by that pressure?

Did he know whether the pressure would be equal in all directions, in effect, whether the water in a tunnel leading off the bottom of a shaft filled with water would even be under pressure?

Did he appreciate the effect that 60 feet of water in a Sump Hole, or a downward sloping flood tunnel, would have on the ‘plug’ in the Money Pit, and did he know whether the weight of the air above this column of water was relevant in his calculations, if he did any?

Would he have believed that the air between the top of the flood tunnel at 110 feet and the platform at 98 ft. (12 feet of air) would have prevented the water from rising above the assumed treasure platform in between, that is, at 104 feet, after being compressed?

Did he think that the platform would keep the water out? Did he not appreciate that wooden ships leak?

Did he think that the soil between the platforms would resist the rise of the water?

If there was a water trap, and the originator knew the answers to the above questions, then the date of the operation is after about 1680.

Would the originator have risked his treasure, not knowing the answers to these potential challenges, or did he just stumble on regardless of consequences? Or is this just one more facet of our assumption that there was water in the Money Pit when the originator left the island, or that he permitted water to get anywhere near his supposed treasure in the Money Pit?

If the originator truly knew what he was doing, if he was conversant with hydrostatics, then given water in the Money Pit we should probably date the operation from shortly before 1700 to shortly before its discovery.

However, if there was no water in the Money Pit, or the originator had no idea whatsoever what he was doing, then the question of technical know-how doesn't arise. Pick your own date!

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening GIB, they, the leaders, knew about barometers hence pressures.Plus I believe the rising tunnel ,treasure vault, was above the high water level and was to be accessed trhough another excavation. if the flood trap had been sprung.. I believe that the origional excavation was water free until the trap was sprung.While ingenous I don't credt the origional
builders with superior intelligence. Per haps your sky charts are the key to the alternave access to the treasure vault.

 

[gjb]

Evening GIB, they, the leaders, knew about barometers hence pressures.

Which is part of my point. Simply assuming this to be the case has implications as to the date of the undertaking, because people didn't know about barometers until about 1650. There was far greater knowledge about air and water pressure by about 1680. Certainly, by 1700, they'd have known enough to understand the full technical implications of the water trap.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi GIB, one other thing, a presure vault wold quickly flood once he seal was opened. A prime example of that occured at Pearl Harbor, on the over turned battleship. They heard survivors tapping on the overturned hull so thinking to rescue them they attempted to cut a hole in hull, but as soon as they broke through the trapped air pressre was released and they were helples to save the trapped men from drowning - as the prssure of the air was released the water rose and drowed the unfortunate men.


p.s. see you back in the adventures of a Tayopa hunter. with more stories.

 

[gjb]

p.s. see you back in the adventures of a Tayopa hunter. with more stories.

You want the second installment? Would that be a fresh pot of coffee?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Definitely.. on both.

 

[gjb]

Definitely.. on both.

Stack up the fire, I'll be there in two shakes, if not one!

 

[gjb]

Hi GIB, one other thing, a pressure vault would quickly flood once the seal was opened. A prime example of that occurred at Pearl Harbor, on the over turned battleship. They heard survivors tapping on the overturned hull so thinking to rescue them they attempted to cut a hole in hull, but as soon as they broke through the trapped air pressore was released and they were helpless to save the trapped men from drowning - as the pressure of the air was released the water rose and drowned the unfortunate men.

That’s exactly so, though I didn’t realise that at Pearl they actually cut through to the trapped crew. I feared they knew what would happen if they did, and were forced to do nothing. Thanks for reassuring me they tried, but how could anybody do otherwise?


We talk about the Oak Island Water Trap, but can we define it? Can we truly envisage the underground workings?

The discovery of water in various shafts struck at various depths just complicates the issue, and it’s clear we don’t know enough about what might have been intended. However, we might be able to simplify matters, maybe attempting to develop some form of schema to ‘explain’ the major finds.



I’m sure not everyone will agree with this diagram, but hopefully it might provide a starting point for discussion. I’ve put sea level at 40 ft. for convenience; I take it this was nearer 35ft (just picture Borehole 10X), it’s just that, as I recall, a layer of putty was found at 40ft.

The upper flood tunnel was at about 110 ft., and I just assume this was the top of the tunnel. There was another possible tunnel at 150 feet, but little is known about that. There may even have been a tunnel to the south shore, but that’s not confirmed. The link between the two could have been natural, but if that’s so, then this could apply to any water-filled shaft on the island.

The Cave-In Pit is shown, and at about this location the bottom might have been at sea level. It’s shown extended as the Cave-In Shaft, which filled with sea water (overnight) after reaching a depth of 52 feet. I’ve assumed, therefore, that there was a Middle Tunnel.

The sump hole is an assumption based on borings at Smith’s Cove, and the bottom is taken to be at the same level as the upper tunnel, which would make it about 80 ft. deep.

Apart from a supposed treasure on the treasure platform, there’s an assumed treasure ‘chamber’ at 140 feet, marked with an ‘X’. Just to show one alternative, there’s another ‘X’ at a potential cache above sea level deposited via the upward sloping upper flood tunnel.

We now come to the nature of the water trap. In its simplest form it’s just a matter of building a coffer dam at Smith’s Cove, completing the works, and then removing the dam. In this diagram, the water would seep into the Sump Hole and fill up the lower tunnel, eventually entering the upper tunnel.

As I pointed out in the original post, there will be air trapped between the top of the tunnel and the platform at 98 feet that will start getting compressed by the pressure of the water. Of greater significance in this respect is the air in the upper flood tunnel. Obviously this will also be compressed as the water fills the Sump Hole, until this has 80 feet of water in it.

It’s easy for us to say at this point, “yeah, that’s between two and three atmospheres,” and we can begin to work out the consequences of putting water into this system, including the explosion of air were the cache accessed, which could be avoided by taking the tunnel back to the sump hole. We can also calculate the effects of all this (the actual numbers involved), but could the originator do the same?

This is the core question. Did he really know what he was doing, or was he trusting to luck, simply guessing from experience? If he really knew what he was doing then he had our knowledge, and a start date of at least 1650 for the operation would be a must. Take away the water trap, however, and we don't have this constraint.

Does anybody have a different perception of the nature of the assumed water trap?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

GJB, I personnally believe that whoever supervised the project, knew of simple pressures and never intended for the original hole / shaft to be the sole recovery shaft, especially in the case of the water traps being triggered, in those times of very limited pumping -- dewatering --abilities, so the alternate upriseing shaft with the treasure vault, must lie wthin 30 or so ft of the surface.

Here is a shovel, get to work, 'after' you loate the "X" spot with a star chart. If a 15 year old kid could locate a still lost Mayan city with one, why can"t you locate tha "X", or will you leave 'everything up to Me' ?.

We split of course , after you pay the taxes.


P.S. watch out for a female posting as CWP, she is a Geologist, smarter than 90% of the men and she can worm the secret Star map out of you, if you don't watch her.
Her weakneses are Zinfandel wine and Polar Bear Skin Rugs in front of fireplaces.

 

[gjb]

Will you leave 'everything up to Me' ?. We split of course , after you pay the taxes.

Taxes? What taxes? I figured we’d be working at night - and you know you never tax the night shift!

You'll find I'm a fair man, and we'll split the work right down the middle. I’ll row there and carry the tools from the boat; you carry the loot to the boat and row back!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

GIB,, work ?? work?? now you have lost me, what is that? Get to work (?) on your star chart, must I do everything ?

Seriously, I think that we are making a mistake in thinking that thses men were far more intelligent and devious than they actually were. Considering the results of today's efforts, That tends to confirm it.

They were prepared for the probable, -- most likely -- eventual excavation of their deposit, shaft through leakage from one of the laborers on what they were burying, etc. and so prepared the water traps, and IF the traps "were sprung, a simple way to still retrieve their deposit contents,

They were dealing with far less educated men then, today,with the standard brute force techniues being used, . it appears that they were excellent in primative phsycology also.

 

[lokiblossom]

Does anybody have a different perception of the nature of the assumed water trap?

As you know the water trap has been well discussed on the old Oak Island Forum. IMHO, if you dig a deep hole close to the ocean sooner or later water will gush in.
Cheers, Loki

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Loki, may I put in my piece, seep etc in yes, in fact eventually prob. fill the shaft, but they did not find a shaft full of water ?? .,as usual this early in the morning, join me Lokie ?

 

[lokiblossom]

HI Loki, may I put in my piece, seep etc in yes, in fact eventually prob. fill the shaft, but they did not find a shaft full of water ?? .,as usual this early in the morning, join me Lokie ?

They dug the shaft it filled with water, at least that's the way I heard it.
Cheers, Loki

 

[gjb]

HI Loki, may I put in my piece, seep etc in yes, in fact eventually prob. fill the shaft, but they did not find a shaft full of water ?? .,as usual this early in the morning, join me Lokie ?

People keep insisting there was a water trap. However, there’s just an impression that there might have been a trap. It's not a fact. We can only observe that there was water in the vicinity of the shaft when it was opened up. Furthermore, the water didn’t gush up, it seeped up, so it didn’t initially have the full force of eighty feet of water behind it. There was no real pressure in the system when the pit was opened.

The point to be made is that there’s an alternative to a water trap. This is, that there wasn’t supposed to be water in the shaft at all. It got there over time through seepage or by accident.

So, maybe we should stop claiming that there had to have been a water trap.

 

[gjb]

As you know the water trap has been well discussed on the old Oak Island Forum. IMHO, if you dig a deep hole close to the ocean sooner or later water will gush in. Cheers, Loki

Loki, I don't really remember a particularly focused discussion on the subject, so I may not have been present at the time. What I do remember is suggesting that there need not have been water in the pit when the originator left the island, and so there need not have been any treasure in the Money Pit at all, only to have the thread hi-jacked by some prominent members, apparently because this wasn't what they wanted to hear!

...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi loki, GJB, what was the purpose of the coconut fibers in canals that led to the ocean ?

 

[gjb]

Hi loki, GJB, what was the purpose of the coconut fibers in canals that led to the ocean ?

My feeling is that we should consider the possibility that the water catchment was connected to a shaft (Sump Hole) and possible tunnels leading into the hill ENE to NNE of the Money Pit. The purpose of this may have been to protect a treasure - or access to it - that was deposited other than in the Money Pit, and potentially above sea level.

The Money Pit is then irrelevant to the discussion, and doesn't even need to relate to the original deposit, except my feeling is that we might be making another huge assumption. We imagine that the originator's intention might have been to dig a shaft 150 feet or more deep and put a treasure at the bottom. Maybe this is putting the cart before the horse. Could the Money Pit not have been an exploratory shaft to determine the nature of what he would encounter underground and the depth at which bedrock might be found? It could then have served to ventilate the workings, or be used in whatever way he chose thereafter.

So, the originator could have used the Money Pit and its tunnels to ventilate the eventual water-filled tunnels, as they were being dug, and then sealed them off. However, over the years, the pressure of the water broke through the seals and allowed water to seep into the dry tunnels and thence into the Money Pit. The 'plug' (the platforms) may have been resisting the pressure and keeping the breach inactive. However, when the plug was removed the water would find less resistance and ultimately (overnight) there was nothing to prevent the pressure generated by 80ft. of water from breaking through.

It's just another way of looking at the findings and, in my case, to argue that there wasn't necessarily any treasure in the Money Pit, that it's somewhere else, as you and I both believe, potentially within 20 ft. of the surface. So, then, you need a map, or maps, based on the markers (triangles and drilled rocks) to locate the spot.

It's then the instructions on the maps that become important. See Captain Kidd Treasure Maps: The Reality. The pieces of paper need not be original - they're just a way of conveying the information, and the outlines of the islands need not apply to the instructions - these have simply been added. The island these instructions properly relate to is Oak Island. See The Oak Island Mystery, Treasure Maps and Geometry

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning ,Gjb, Vetilation in those days was provided by a fire. the same principal you find wth a candle inside of a glass jar.. Interesting theory my friend.

 

[gjb]

Morning ,Gjb, Ventilation in those days was provided by a fire. the same principle you find with a candle inside of a glass jar.. Interesting theory my friend.

Indeed! And I've seen suggestions that in mines of old they may have used a sail over a shaft to direct a breeze into it, but fire has certainly been used in shaft and tunnel systems to heat the air at one end and so draw air in at the other.

Had the Sump Hole and Money Pit been connected by a tunnel there would probably have been some sluggish natural ventilation, because the top of the Money Pit would have been some 40ft. above that of the Sump Hole (so, cooler in summer, and maybe warmer in winter).