Oak Island: Was something even there.

Tom_in_CA

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... Show me the studies that prove such behaviors.....

I just did. That was a case example. I don't know what you mean by (or what qualifies as) "studies". Haven't you seen it for yourself ? I can give you case after case after case of the "telephone game" and "treasure fever" at play, but you will say they don't qualify as "studies" ?

Ok ? Anyone know of any "studies" done (in university double-blind scientific "studies") that shows the human inclination to trend towards such things ? eg.: Loch ness monster "proofs", treasure "proofs, UFO and/or conspiracy "proofs" , etc....
 

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Tom_in_CA

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... , with "markings" at ten foot intervals. The story then evolved into there being platforms at ten foot intervals. ....

Well OF COURSE the later interpretations that "markings" were/meant "platforms", is simply logical sense. What don't you understand ?? :tongue3:
 

lokiblossom

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What about the timbers at various levels and the coconut fibers?

The coconut fibres; They were carbon dated to the late 1100s (more or less, I don't remember the error factor) by Woods Hole, but the fibres were handed to them and not retrieved by the Woods Hole staff. Using this fact detractors have said the fibers were not from Oak Island, but from somewhere else. The problem with this line of thinking is how and why would somebody go out and find coconut fibres have them tested for dating until they found the date they wanted then give them to Woods Hole? The other question was raised about ocean water effecting the dating. But this is only a significant factor if they are at a great depth. So IMHO, the Woods Hole C-14 dating should be taken seriously.
There was also an earlier C-14 dating that produced similar results which I don't have in front of me right now.
Than there was the Carbon dating the Lagina's had done also producing results of between 1200 to 1400ad.
Cheers, Loki
 

Tom_in_CA

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Please site your evidence showing the discrepancy in the stories.

Woah woah, ok, .... so if it were shown to you, that there was an evolution of "marking" evolved to "platforms", would you THEN believe ? Or would you dismiss this and be off to something else ?

There has been evolution-of-the story recountings posted here before. Linking studies by authors documenting every single factoid , and when it appeared historically in print record. Tracing back to the earliest origins of any said factoid. And when looking at that, you will indeed see that the story did "evolve" in that aspect.

I'll leave it to someone else to link, highlight the sentences, and so forth. But first, you gotta admit to us all, that once/if you see that, you will join the skeptic's side. Agreed ? :)
 

lokiblossom

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Woah woah, ok, .... so if it were shown to you, that there was an evolution of "marking" evolved to "platforms", would you THEN believe ? Or would you dismiss this and be off to something else ?

There has been evolution-of-the story recountings posted here before. Linking studies by authors documenting every single factoid , and when it appeared historically in print record. Tracing back to the earliest origins of any said factoid. And when looking at that, you will indeed see that the story did "evolve" in that aspect.

I'll leave it to someone else to link, highlight the sentences, and so forth. But first, you gotta admit to us all, that once/if you see that, you will join the skeptic's side. Agreed ? :)

In some cases, not all of course, there is also much disinformation from the detractors. Such as seawater significantly effects C-14 dating results. Although it does effect the process it is only significant if the object tested has spent a large amount of its time in deep water.
I'll be one of the first though that considers much of the Oak Island story a hoax, but not all of it!
Cheers, Loki
 

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Tom_in_CA

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Top Ten Money Pit Myths

I'm waiting for source documentation from Joltes.

Raparee, we can dismiss all 10 of the points in your link. Because:

a) all we have to say, following each point, is "prove it". And then set the bar as what qualifies as "proof" increasingly higher (ie.: "move the goalposts") And to propose crazy (yet not "impossible") scenarios as to how some such objection could be overcome. Thus meaning it most certainly happened. Right ?

b) not valid because the person who assembled that list was a nonbeliever. Hence biased. And biased notions are "biased", and hence to be dismissed.

Got any other proof ?
 

Raparee

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Raparee, we can dismiss all 10 of the points in your link. Because:

a) all we have to say, following each point, is "prove it". And then set the bar as what qualifies as "proof" increasingly higher (ie.: "move the goalposts") And to propose crazy (yet not "impossible") scenarios as to how some such objection could be overcome. Thus meaning it most certainly happened. Right ?

b) not valid because the person who assembled that list was a nonbeliever. Hence biased. And biased notions are "biased", and hence to be dismissed.

Got any other proof ?

Frustrating, isn't it.
For a number of people, treasure at Oak Island, or Templars in Nova Scotia, or whatever, is a religion. It gets their backs up when the facts contradicting their faith are pointed out.
 

Bud Aurum

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I understand and thanks for your input.


If you look you can find a number of stories on Oak Island and the beginning of the mystery but will find that most tell different recollections with some similarities. The biggest problem is none of the documentation or proof exists today, if ever... especially when a verbal story is repeated, it lacks even more credibility... Physical proof can also be explained away most of the time... Short of pulling out gold bars or a historic relic you will never be able to prove anything.

Even if gold does not exist, This island has more reasons than not to have had a deep history and some evidence left behind by our earliest explorers/settlers and some mysteries to still solve.

Your Bud Aurum
 

Roadhse2

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Here is another question that, while there can be no proof for, is one to consider...If you really want to start at the beginning

Why was THIS island, out of so many, chosen to be the spot to place a treasure, at the great lengths to hide it that were supposedly taken when it is in a known area that was being regularly fished by commercial fisherman from different nations?

These fisherman based out of Cuba plied these waters on a continuous basis from the 1580's forward. That the nearby coast was being explored in the mid 1600's with settlement not far behind.

Even if we say all of this is true, Money Pit, flood tunnels, finger drains, cofferdams...all of it...these activities would be very apparent to anyone that happened to pass by, and noted. The length of time it would take to accomplish this in relative secrecy, and also cover your even having been there to begin with, would almost insure that you would be found out.

There are many more islands in out of the way places they would have known of in this era of ocean exploration that would have been more suitable.

So if you really want to start at the beginning, show me anything that would make THIS island the one that had to hold a treasure.
 

petetherocker

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^ exactly.

though some will undoubtedly provide proof of Ley Lines/Celestial Maps/Codes supposedly found in Shakespear's work, etc...

As Colonel Potter of M.A.S.H would say: "Horse Hockey" or "Horse Feathers"
 

Tom_in_CA

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Frustrating, isn't it.
For a number of people, treasure at Oak Island, or Templars in Nova Scotia, or whatever, is a religion. It gets their backs up when the facts contradicting their faith are pointed out.

Here's the comeback line I like, whenever some portion of the story is dis-proved and finally put to rest:

"much of the Oak Island story a hoax, but not all of it!". And that's usually followed with something like: ".... therefore it's just a matter of sorting fact from fiction".

But this sort of presumes there's some treasure there in the first place ? If there's no treasure there, then it WON'T MATTER how much "fact from fiction" one sorts out , eh ? Whether or not salt can be dried, or how you spell the 13 yr. old boy's middle name, or whether or not a genius way of digging a pit with hand tools *could* have been done, or whether or it was "marks" or "platforms", etc.... All of that becomes a moot point, if there was no treasure in the first place.
 

Roadhse2

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Hey Tom in CA.....

Just to note...the salt drying deal has nothing to do with treasure, or not, on the island...

It only has to do with a use for the cove and drains that the fishing company that owned the island in 1753 could have put in since they needed the salt...

IF....big if...any treasure is ever found it still won't have anything to do with the drains or cove since no tunnel was found when the drain area was dug out...just a 24' deep well/sump they all dumped into with a blind stop bottom.

Carry on.....
 

lokiblossom

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Yes we've eaten at Crabby Jim's . What brings you to Monterey ? Next time you're here , drop me a line !

I may just do that, I just found out I might have to be in Placerville this spring. Not to close but like I said I always seem to end up near Monterey.
Cheers, Loki
 

ECS

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Coconut fibers were found and were dated to approx. 1100AD by the Woods Hole Institute. They also stated that there were a number of factors that could have influenced the dating (weather, salt water, etc...). It should also be noted that the sample of coconut fiber that was tested was handed to Woods Hole by the landowner, so there was no way for Woods Hole to verify provenance.
Coir was used in Asia in shipbuilding for many centuries before 1100AD, when the Arab ships began using coir on their trading vessels down the east coast of Africa and into the Indian Ocean.
Yes the Templers may have had knowledge of coir from their time in the East, but, coir use in European shipbuilding or even for cargo packing, came several centuries later.
The coconut fibers, coir, are, as many aspects of Oak Island, are quite suspect.
What was their purpose, have they always been there since the Pit discovery, and, where was their origin?
The New World, or Old?
 

Dave Rishar

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IF....big if...any treasure is ever found it still won't have anything to do with the drains or cove since no tunnel was found when the drain area was dug out...just a 24' deep well/sump they all dumped into with a blind stop bottom.

That wouldn't be a bad place to hide a treasure, actually.

In 2167, people will be arguing about whether or not the Odd Fellows were hiding crosses in the salt mine on Oak Island. That's how these stories develop. You heard it here first.
 

lokiblossom

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Coir was used in Asia in shipbuilding for many centuries before 1100AD, when the Arab ships began using coir on their trading vessels down the east coast of Africa and into the Indian Ocean.
Yes the Templers may have had knowledge of coir from their time in the East, but, coir use in European shipbuilding or even for cargo packing, came several centuries later.
The coconut fibers, coir, are, as many aspects of Oak Island, are quite suspect.
What was their purpose, have they always been there since the Pit discovery, and, where was their origin?
The New World, or Old?

Lets nail down this Woods Hole thing. According to the report
from a letter from Richard C. Nieman of Beta Analytic, the company that did the C-14 test
"the sample was physically obtained by David Tobias from Smith's Cove behind an old board wall (first section North side) and spent the last 20 years or so in the island museum as sample 'S-2'."

Results of the test; date received September 30, 1993/ date reported October 6, 1993
calibrated age one sigma 1168- 1282/ two sigma 1036- 1298 there is of course still a minor error posibility.

It has been identified as coconut fibre at least 4 different times since 1937 including the Woods Hole team and the Lagina team. The Lagina team also C-14 dated their own sample of the material to a similar period, 50- 100 years later although as yet they have not provided confirmation of this (perhaps History Channel constraints).

Experts have shown in several different reports that coconuts did not appear anywhere in the Atlantic Basin, which includes all of the Caribbean and Mediterranean, until they were brought to the Atlantic by the Portuguse in 1499.

It is a known fact that coconuts were being manufactured into coir (packing, rope and other products) in India before the period in question.

It is also known that the Middle East, Cyprus, Egypt, Constantinople and other Eastern Mediterranean countries traded with India and China.

Of course Western Med. countries also traded in the same area, but Western Med. countries also kept very good records concerning trade and exploration, and none of them sent anybody to North America until 1492.

It is also a fact and well documented that the Knights Templar (a Catholic Order) was based on Cyprus in 1300, traded in the Eastern Med., and traveled back and forth from France to the Middle East.

In 1307, the Grand Master of these Templars, Jacques de Molay was ordered to France by Pope Clement V and asked not to bring any of his knights with him because he had plenty to attend him in France.

Against the order of his Pope, de Molay sailed for France with 60 Knights and their attendents including horses and equipment, also bringing much of the Templars treasure from Cyprus.

The Order learned of their pending arrest at least a month before it happened on October 13, 1307 and according to a documented testimony by a Templar leader escaped in a large number of vessels.

The vessels were never found and neither were several high- ranking members of the order, including Gerard de Villiers, Master of France, who became the most wanted man in France after the escape.

The Knights Templar had the vessels and the experience to sail great distances over open water, were the only ones who could have sailed to Nova Scotia with coir in their holds during that time period, and had a good reason for doing so.

A few small factoids; The Templars in Scotland lived and worked among the Scottish Norse population. The Scottish Norse knew the way to what would become the Canadian shore. Carbon dating is not effected by sea water, what is effected is the dating of plants and animals that lived in sea water. The Vikings did not trade in the Eastern Med. during this time period. If Tobias, who himself did not accept the Templar thing did produce a bogus sample, he must have looked for examples, had them tested in some other lab. until he found an example to suit his needs (I don't think so). Woods Hole took him at his word and he had witnesses.

Cheers, Loki
 

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Singlestack Wonder

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Companies in the 1600's-1700's timeframe could have had tons of coconut fiber laying around for various uses. When fiber was bought from coconut producing regions of the world, it too could have been laying around forever. The carbon dating of the coconut fiber means nothing in regards to supporting the hoax of oak island.
 

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lokiblossom

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Companies in the 1600's-1700's timeframe could have had tons of coconut fiber laying around for various uses. When fiber was bought from coconut producing regions of the world, it too could have been laying around forever. The carbon dating of the coconut fiber means nothing in regards to supporting the hoax of oak island.

300-400 years old, sure and I'm sure they use it all the time, lol. IMHO, it would last one trip across the Med. or Atlantic in a wet cargo hold, and I can produce evidence. Do you have any evidence of your own statement?

Btw, the only part of the Oak Island story I am supporting is that Templar vessels landed there.
Cheers, Loki
 

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Raparee

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300-400 years old, sure and I'm sure they use it all the time, lol. IMHO, it would last one trip across the Med. or Atlantic in a wet cargo hold,

So coir dating to 1100 AD can survive being buried (allegedly) in the sand of Oak Island, subject to centuries of tides, sand, freezing and thawing, yet, according to you, could only last one trip across the Med or Atlantic?

I'm With Singestack on this one. Even if the coir does date to 1100 or 1400 (or whatever), it doesn't mean that it was deposited in 1100 or 1400 (or whenever), especially when considering the sketchy provenance that you describe above ("the sample was physically obtained by David Tobias from Smith's Cove behind an old board wall (first section North side) and spent the last 20 years or so in the island museum as sample 'S-2'.").
 

Roadhse2

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Loki...

You kind of contradict yourself when you say " IMHO, it would last one trip across the Med. or Atlantic in a wet cargo hold"

If that were true, then the one trip from the Med would have made it unsuitable to make another across the Atlantic for any kind of use...Plus we are to believe that the Templars, who had never been to the island or the NS mainland, planned on using this coir to filter seawater ahead of time, while in Europe, to hide a treasure, but once there, OI, dumped it out and then buried their treasure somewhere else? That's less likely than the ships perished in a storm on the way over and the coir made itself to the island on it's own with storm tides, IMHO. IF they would have had a hold full to begin with to take along, which would be a poor use of a ship and men that could be used to transport items you may actually need when escaping to an unknown land.

The "behind an old board wall" is a bit troubling also...was this wall also from the 1100ce time period too, exposed to weather with out rotting to dirt?
 

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