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Thread: Oak Island: Was something even there.

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  1. #31
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    steve andermatt

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    Quote Originally Posted by G.I.B. View Post
    The beginning of the story actually starts at the beginning- burying a treasure.

    It would have taken a hundred people to dig as deep as they believe the treasure is, with the technology of the time.

    From that, the hundreds of starving and broke people would have to leave the treasure in place while living out a paupers life cold and hungry.

    Then, hundreds of people would have had to remain silent until all of them died without showing anyone, telling anyone, or passing along where it was all the time knowing where their wealth and salvation was buried.

    But they did, before leaving in hunger, carve out maps, symbols, and clues to where it was for others to someday solve.

    ...really?
    Well it could have been the Jesuits because we all know every rock anyone finds is a secret treasure marker so there had to be hundreds if not thousands leaving those rocks all over the place pointing out their treasure locations,Maybe all those rocks are from the excavation of Oak island and they all point back to there.
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  2. #32

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    Sorry I am unsure what you are asking...
    I am asking for the link, of the thread, that you alluded to here:

    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    .... I find the descendants claim credible that three chests were found... (Discussed in detail in other thread).....
    But before you link me, you have to make the promise I requested. OK ? I am not going to take the time to study it and bat-it down (explain it away with more plausible explanations), if it's going to fall on deaf "treasure fever" ears.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Interesting "reason why" explanation. But .... put yourself in the shoes of someone "hiding a treasure". If this was a problem, to keep others from "easily" retrieving it, then presto: Don't enlist those "other people's help". And simply bury it yourself. WITH NO ONE AROUND. Then you merely go 3 ft. deep, cover and fluff up the top, and presto, no one can see where you've dug.

    But let me guess: This was not possible d/t the "treasure" weighed 100 tons, hence needing 100 people. Right ? And the bars were not individual 1 lb. bars capable of being carried by a single person, one at a time. It was a single 100 ton bar (they had good smelter back in those days afterall), that needed those 100 people who couldn't be trusted.

    Something is telling me this is a giant game of "prove invisible leprechuans don't exist" game
    You are quite probably right. I doubt that any treasure was buried at any depth there myself. I think that the a big problem with oak Island is everything that is found there is assumed to be from treasure hiders or treasure seekers and ignores the continuous human activity over hundreds of years on the island. This tied up with treasure seekers lying about what they find to get investors and treasure finders not telling investors what they found. So everything is twisted together and fact and fiction are near impossible to separate...

    My own view (pretty loose view at that) is that the descendants 'believe' the story they are telling. This however does not make it true. There great grandfather could of made it up....
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Back-of-the-boat View Post
    Well it could have been the Jesuits...
    Oh PUULLEEEAASSEEE , don't get me started. I'm a docent museum guide tour leader at Carmel Mission in CA (the headquarters of the other 21 missions). And if I start hearing this Jesuit treasure stuff, I'm going to puke ! They were doing good to get a shipment of cloth, wax, a few paintings and candlesticks, trinkets to pass out to the indians, etc.... If you get me started, I promise, it won't be pretty !
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Back-of-the-boat View Post
    Well it could have been the Jesuits because we all know every rock anyone finds is a secret treasure marker so there had to be hundreds if not thousands leaving those rocks all over the place pointing out their treasure locations,Maybe all those rocks are from the excavation of Oak island and they all point back to there.
    When you take a vow of poverty as the Jesuits do you have to hide the loot deep. ;-)
    America was founded by tough hell-raisers. Rugged citizens who evaded taxes, spoke strongly against tyranny, grew tobacco, brewed beer, distilled spirits, and smuggled weapons. And it will be saved by those same types of citizens.

  6. #36

    Mar 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    You are quite probably right. I doubt that any treasure was buried at any depth there myself. I think that the a big problem with oak Island is everything that is found there is assumed to be from treasure hiders or treasure seekers and ignores the continuous human activity over hundreds of years on the island. This tied up with treasure seekers lying about what they find to get investors and treasure finders not telling investors what they found. So everything is twisted together and fact and fiction are near impossible to separate...

    My own view (pretty loose view at that) is that the descendants 'believe' the story they are telling. This however does not make it true. There great grandfather could of made it up....
    Bingo ! You're onto the other "more plausible" explanations. Good wrap-up. And all the people in-between that 150 yrs. can be quite sincere.

    And as for facts being "impossible to separate", don't forget that even if it were "possible" to "separate the facts from fiction" (of all the debate points), if the STARTING "fact" of whether or not there's a treasure there is not true, then it really doesn't matter how much of the other stuff (shafts, fish-drying, ability or in-ability to dig, blah blah) make any bit of difference. If there is no treasure, then it doesn't help to separate any other fact from fiction.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    I am asking for the link, of the thread, that you alluded to here:



    But before you link me, you have to make the promise I requested. OK ? I am not going to take the time to study it and bat-it down (explain it away with more plausible explanations), if it's going to fall on deaf "treasure fever" ears.
    Ha ha.. I would love to be convinced. I am a skeptic myself and would like to consider myself open minded. OK if you convince me that your explanations adequately counter the claims in the interview and blog articles I will no longer support the view that the original treasure finders took the treasure. I would also greatly appreciate you taking the time to educate me...

    I already do not believe that any treasure still exists in the pit.

    Gold, legends, and old maps: the story of an Oak Island family's treasure The Blockhouse Blog - The Oak Island Compendium

    On the trail of Oak Island's Lieutenant Daniel Vaughan The Blockhouse Blog - The Oak Island Compendium

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie P. (NY) View Post
    When you take a vow of poverty as the Jesuits do you have to hide the loot deep. ;-)
    Ahhhh, but see.... you've fallen for the Jesuit conspiracy. They just make you *think* they're sincerely just missionaries (with vows of poverty, caring for others, etc....). It's all just a giant trick to keep you off the track of knowing where their treasure vaults are. Pretty clever of them, eh ?
    Charlie P. (NY) likes this.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  9. #39
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    steve andermatt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Oh PUULLEEEAASSEEE , don't get me started. I'm a docent museum guide tour leader at Carmel Mission in CA (the headquarters of the other 21 missions). And if I start hearing this Jesuit treasure stuff, I'm going to puke ! They were doing good to get a shipment of cloth, wax, a few paintings and candlesticks, trinkets to pass out to the indians, etc.... If you get me started, I promise, it won't be pretty !
    Sorry couldn't help myself
    back of the boat

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    .... if you convince me that your explanations adequately counter the claims ....
    Ok gazzahk. But first let's define "adequately counter".

    Because I don't want to bump into a situation where .... if I haven't conclusively shut every-single door .... that ... therefore the claim (a found treasure in this case) is still, of necessity "true". In other words, I can already admit that without video evidence, polygraphs, proof of forged interviews, blah blah , that you won't still simply involve me in the type of crazy "possible" scenarios.

    Example of how common sense logic doesn't seem to prevail here as "proofs" : If someone tries to give proof of difficulty of pits this deep, someone else points to the pyramids as proof of engineering marvels. Never mind that they took 70 yrs. and entire city populations to build the pyramids ! If you consider counter claims like that, to be satisfactory to 'diss my efforts to explain your links.. I need to know ahead of time.

    Hence, define "adequately counter" in such a way that we're on the same page.
    Metal detecting is my one worldy vice!

  11. #41

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Ok gazzahk. But first let's define "adequately counter".

    Because I don't want to bump into a situation where .... if I haven't conclusively shut every-single door .... that ... therefore the claim (a found treasure in this case) is still, of necessity "true". In other words, I can already admit that without video evidence, polygraphs, proof of forged interviews, blah blah , that you won't still simply involve me in the type of crazy "possible" scenarios.

    Example of how common sense logic doesn't seem to prevail here as "proofs" : If someone tries to give proof of difficulty of pits this deep, someone else points to the pyramids as proof of engineering marvels. Never mind that they took 70 yrs. and entire city populations to build the pyramids ! If you consider counter claims like that, to be satisfactory to 'diss my efforts to explain your links.. I need to know ahead of time.

    Hence, define "adequately counter" in such a way that we're on the same page.
    You ask a lot my friend.. You want me to say what it takes to convince me.. That is difficult.

    Ok here goes

    I believe there must be a source of the legend. I do not find it very credible that so much effort was spent digging a hole found by three boys unless there was some treasure at some time (ie shown by sudden unexplained increase in unexplained wealth). Therefore what the descendants said would provide an adequate explanation of why later people thought there was treasure there.

    Therefore all I really need to be shown is that the claimed increase in wealth did not happen (or has a more plausible reason) and/ or the cross is not as old as the original find of the pit and/or a plausible reason that people actually believed treasure ever existed in the pit - as these are the three most convincing things that lead to my view.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_in_CA View Post
    Ahhhh, but see.... you've fallen for the Jesuit conspiracy. They just make you *think* they're sincerely just missionaries (with vows of poverty, caring for others, etc....). It's all just a giant trick to keep you off the track of knowing where their treasure vaults are. Pretty clever of them, eh ?
    Those lousy cabbages. Spend all their time carving secret codes and symbols to let people know where they have hidden stuff. Instead of just hiding it and keeping their mouths shut like good Methodists. ;-)
    America was founded by tough hell-raisers. Rugged citizens who evaded taxes, spoke strongly against tyranny, grew tobacco, brewed beer, distilled spirits, and smuggled weapons. And it will be saved by those same types of citizens.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by G.I.B. View Post
    Okay, so the same scenario, but change it to 10 people leaving a known treasure behind without saying anything to anyone and all of them keeping it a secret and not going back for it while living a crappy life.

    ... still Really?
    That is the way of most treasure legends, the treasure is left behind, no one talks or goes back, and those involved either are all killed or died, but somehow the story comes out and a legend is born.
    G.I.B. likes this.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    .... I do not find it very credible that so much effort was spent digging a hole found by three boys.....
    Really ? Ok, my dad (born 1930) told me the following: Upon hearing the news of Pearl Harbor on the radio in 1941 .... rushed with his neighborhood fellow 11 yrs. old school chums in the neighborhood . To dig a fox-hole hiding place in their backyard in a farm town of remote Texas cow country town. Why ? Because the Japanese were *sure to attack inland central Texas at any minute*. Hence certainly this attack was imminent, Right ? Otherwise, how else can you explain my dad's digging the foxhole ... if ... most certainly .... the japanese zeros weren't poised to strike Gateseville Texas ?

    Do you see how the fact of "3 boys digging a hole" does not mean that "... therefore ... a treasure exists" ? It doesn't logically follow. Young boys do ALL SORTS OF SILLY THINGS And ... in the boy's mind's eyes.... FOR GOOD REASON (just like my dad's "good reasons".)
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Jan 05, 2017 at 10:54 PM.
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  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    You ask a lot my friend.. You want me to say what it takes to convince me.. ......
    And for good reason ! So that I'm not running around trying to dispel notions that will fall on deaf ears . My time (and yours) is valuable . Ie.: I don't want any "moving goal-posts" !

    You've got to agree that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And it's not on the skeptic to disprove it, but it's up to the claimant to prove it. So that if I provide alternate explanations, the possibility that someone can find some crazy conspiracy way it *could* be still "possible", does mean that ... ergo... I haven't proved my point of "likely". Otherwise, the debate is endless ! Like trying to prove santa claus doesn't exist. Someone merely claims that perhaps Santa is invisible, or came when I was away taking a leak, etc.....

    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    ....I believe there must be a source of the legend. ....
    The "source of the legend" is likely "treasure fever gone awry". The truth that human psychology wants .... sseeooo hard to believe in a treasure (lest you be "left out"). That you pass on and propagate any conjecture, theory, clue, claim, etc..... And the person who receives it, likewise does the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    .... ie shown by sudden unexplained increase in unexplained wealth.....
    You are stating a point here, that I'd have to study and see about. I have not read any links yet, so I can't comment on this. But your starting premise, if true, needs to be addressed. But how is this a "starting premise" ? I'll be there's alternate explanations. There are lots of people who get "unexplained increases" in wealth, that can be explained (once facts are sorted out).

    Eg.: I have had increased wealth. And I metal detect and treasure hunt. And I suppose that ... 200 yrs. from now, someone could find some reference to "Tom in CA" had increased wealth. Plus "Tom in CA" metal detects". Therefore "Tom in CA must've found Pancho Villa's hidden cache in Salinas, CA".

    But the truth is, ... no, I haven't found Pancho Via's treasure. Tom in CA worked his @ss off, dispatching street sweepers to paving jobs. And earned his $$ by hard work and tears.

    To which someone .... 200 yrs. from now ... will find some counter-evidence that "Tom in CA goofed off in front of his 'puter playing Tetris and gabbing with md'ing friends, therefore it's not possible that he made his wealth via street sweepers". You see how the debate will never end ? Aaarrgghhh.

    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    .... Therefore what the descendants said would provide an adequate explanation of why later people thought there was treasure there....
    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    ... Therefore all I really need to be shown is that the claimed increase in wealth did not happen (or has a more plausible reason) ... .
    What the "descendants said" is highly subject to the telephone game. I can give you humorous examples, of how in a single few years (heck, in a single week! ), the telephone game amongst friends, family, or total strangers, can come up with ALL SORTS of seemingly iron clad "treasures". If you want, I can give you those examples. Or I can go straight on to your link, and explain alternatives of that.
    Last edited by Tom_in_CA; Jan 05, 2017 at 10:51 PM.
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