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  1. #31
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    Stretch

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    Quote Originally Posted by n2mini View Post
    I understand they may have been used to make salt but why use them over just boiling the water out? As the Finger Drains sit or atleast what all the art shows them to be is enclosed box drains leading to 1 drain. Covered with coconut fibers to filter the water but if they have a top on them to enclose them the fibers only need to be where ever the water is supposed to enter them not all over the whole beach. They then still have to do something with the "filtered" water as it comes out the other end...
    It might be a lot simpler that we are making it. On the show they draw up those nice diagrams so they can say they are flood tunnels leading to the MP area. What if they just drain back into the ocean so the salt accumulates on the eel grass and coconut fibers to be dried and collected later?
    I could draw a pic that would look good and not tie into the flood drains but they wouldn't use it on the show as it doesn't fix the story they are telling.

  2. #32

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    Maybe way back when they didn't know they could just boil out most of a pot of water and then the rest dry out over a few days and have salt compared to going to the finger drain/coconut fiber trouble. We'll never know for sure how much of that area was covered with the fiber but it supposedly a large area, and it had to be shipped over there. Just seems like alot of trouble to make salt that way..

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by n2mini View Post
    Maybe way back when they didn't know they could just boil out most of a pot of water and then the rest dry out over a few days and have salt compared to going to the finger drain/coconut fiber trouble. We'll never know for sure how much of that area was covered with the fiber but it supposedly a large area, and it had to be shipped over there. Just seems like alot of trouble to make salt that way..
    I hear ya. One would think boiling is easier unless you needed tons of salt. Then it would be how many kettles, how many fires, how much wood, how many guys to man the task.

    If tons of salt was needed, a whole beach could supply tons of salt.
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch Da Truth View Post
    I hear ya. One would think boiling is easier unless you needed tons of salt. Then it would be how many kettles, how many fires, how much wood, how many guys to man the task.

    If tons of salt was needed, a whole beach could supply tons of salt.
    I do not believe D.Kings theory is the answer to Smiths cove. There is nothing that has been found that supports his view.

    My views of the problems with the Salt works speculation are outlined in this post Not possible digging that deep.

    Further to this I will add some comments on specific pieces of his article..
    Here is an extract from his article..
    An old historic method of making salt from seawater is described by Professor Le Conte as “lixiviating saline sand and then boiling the brine” (10). He records that salt is made by this method on a small scale in Normandy (he published his work in 1862). The tide is allowed to cover beach sand, which dries after the tide recedes, leaving a mixture of salt and sand. The sand is then removed to sheds, then is transferred to pits where seawater is added. The seawater dissolves the salt in the sand, thus increasing the concentration of salt in the water. The concentrated salt solution is then boiled to extract the salt.
    If this was his theory this would suggest that after each tide they now had to dig up the sand on the beach to get the alt form it. Why would the salt be concentrated on the sand? This is the method that he is basing his theory on. (But later goes on to say it was not done this way and comes up with his own theory which is not based on any other salt making method that he quotes as examples)

    D.King himself argues that no solar evaporation of the water was being done to help produce the salt being done on OI
    Because of the relatively cold climate of maritime Canada, producing the salt by solar evaporation was not feasible. The only way to manufacture salt economically on Oak Island was to concentrate seawater by one of the known processes used before the 1800s, and then boil the concentrated salt solution.
    He claims that there is a natural saltwater spring. I have seen no evidence of this anywhere else mentioned. What is he trying to suggest that somehow next to OI there is a mysterious source of extra salty sea water. If this was the case then the coffer dam would never be dry as the spring would fill it. Why would the "spring water” be any more salty then the rest of the sea. If this spring was outside the coffer dam then it would simply mix with the ocean. Why has no one mentioned this salt water spring?

    As to this argument
    The natural saltwater spring, and/or controlled amounts of seawater through channels in the dyke, would be allowed to permeate the sand on the artificial beach by capillary action. Wind and sun would dry the sand leaving a mixture of salt and sand. The process would be repeated at regular intervals until there was a considerable quantity of salt in the sand. In the meantime the tides would be kept off the beach by the dyke. Once sufficient salt had accumulated in the sand on the artificial beach, a larger than usual but still controlled inundation of seawater at high tide would be allowed through the dyke, covering the beach and dissolving the salt in the sand as the water dripped through the coconut husk and eel grass layers down through the rocks and through the finger drains to the well. The purpose of the coconut husk and eel grass layers was to sieve out any sand and silt from the concentrated salt solution before it reached the well.
    There is no explanation as to why this process would concentrate salt on the beach. There would have to be at least 5-7 foot of water allowed into the dam to get to the top of the beach. This would mean any salt sand would just be exactly the same as the sea water... Why would water that dripped to the drains be anything other than just sea water? The drains were meant to be covered with flat rocks so how would the water drip into them anyway? Why would sea water that was not directly over the drains drip into the drains rather than just flow back out to sea when the tide went down? How would those drains catch saltwater form the parts of the beach that are not near the drains?

    D.King next statement is now a complete NEW method of alleged salt making and is not based on any other method ever used

    Oak Islands salt works where I believe the salt-sand mixture was not moved at all but instead left in situ with the concentrated salt solution being produced by allowing fresh seawater to drain through the salt-sand mixture (dissolving the salt therein on the way) and then through the finger drains to accumulate as a concentrated salt solution in the well.
    If fresh sea water is allowed over the beach then the salt concentration on the sand is going to be exactly the same as the sea water it mixes with.

    As shown from this source

    Believing now that the flooding tunnels were connected to the sea, men scoured the island's shores. At an area known as Smith's Cove, they found a fascinating structure. The company built a temporary dam, called a cofferdam, to uncover a large overlay made of coconut husk, 145 feet wide and the length of space between low tide and high tide. Underneath the coconut husk was a layer of beach stones five feet deep. Beneath the beach stones were five finger-drains constructed of flat stones, converging into a single drain. The coconut husk worked as a barrier against sand to allow water into the drains.
    However, soon after the company found the mysterious finger drains, a storm hit and destroyed the cofferdam. The company then decided to dig shafts between Smith's Cove and the Money Pit in an attempt to intercept and divert the seawater away from the Money Pit. However, after failing to reach water in this shaft, and after digging several more, the company ran out of funds and gave up.
    Source: The Truro Company Discovers the Finger Drains - How Oak Island Works | HowStuffWorks

    referencing this book: https://books.google.com.hk/books?id...ir_esc=y&hl=en

    This setup would give that beach incredible drainage. No salt would sit on the sand as any water would drain Away as soon as the tide went out.

    This just seems totally without any logic and in contradiction to things said earlier in the article.

    If there was indeed a saltwater spring at Smiths Cove, then the area and depth of the artificial beach was deliberately chosen to be large enough to ensure saltwater from the spring would spread via capillary action over a sufficiently large volume of sand that natural evaporation of the saltwater would be complete before the water got through the layers of coconut husk and eel grass so no water would in fact get through to the well from this source.
    This is a cold climate and this beach has excellent drainage. How would this evaporation occur in seconds?

    Also he's speculations about rain water do little to support his own theory for the same reason. What evaporation…

    However, what about rainfall falling on the beach? The depth of the sand (about two feet or 60 centimetres) seems sufficient to ensure that the water from a light to medium shower would evaporate before reaching the coconut and eel grass layers, so no problems. But a heavy downpour would admittedly result in the rainwater seeping right through the artificial beach and into the finger drains and so into the well.
    This is why D.King theory is not even mentioned by any other authors who have studied OI and speculated as to the artificial beach..
    Last edited by gazzahk; Feb 02, 2017 at 01:52 AM.
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  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch Da Truth View Post
    I hear ya. One would think boiling is easier unless you needed tons of salt. Then it would be how many kettles, how many fires, how much wood, how many guys to man the task.

    If tons of salt was needed, a whole beach could supply tons of salt.
    It could but it doesn't just appear in those Finger Drains, there is alot more to it and waiting for the sun to dry it out would take alot of time compared to boiling..

  6. #36
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    Good post gazzahk. Very good info and BAM, shot us all down!!!

    To be clear, I don't think there is any thing like they keep showing on TV on the beach. But if there was, I was kind of thinking the salt idea was a decent one. I read the link to your post and now see this idea as being "very salty" LOL.
    I am trying to remember, you like the drying out of fish better, right? Like everything on OI, so many theories, not enough time.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch Da Truth View Post
    Good post gazzahk. Very good info and BAM, shot us all down!!!

    To be clear, I don't think there is any thing like they keep showing on TV on the beach. But if there was, I was kind of thinking the salt idea was a decent one. I read the link to your post and now see this idea as being "very salty" LOL.
    I am trying to remember, you like the drying out of fish better, right? Like everything on OI, so many theories, not enough time.
    I am not sure my friend.. My thinking after reading Joys book and seeing the article on coir softening is something like this… (Pure speculation)

    I think something was being done in Smiths cove that required the obvious effort that was put in there.

    I think possibly more than one thing. If there was a naval stores operation there I could see the coffer dam actually being a sea wall and boats were loaded and unloaded the other side of the wall. Inside the seawall was structure/s like a winch/pulley system for loading unloading ships. To me the u-shapped structure looks like a foundation for some structure. This must have been built inside the sea wall/coffer dam.

    The inside the dam is lower than the sea so the drains were needed to drain away water/rain/seepage etc into the sump. Could not drain into the sea as it was higher than the bottom of the area inside the wall.

    Thus the drains were not directly related to the beach. I think it very much could have been something being dried on the beach. What did they feed slaves? Maybe something like sardines/ edible seaweed etc or the idea that they were trying to soften coconut fibre theory could also fit in with the naval stores theory.

    It could have been a lumber/fishing operation being run off the island. It definitely in my view was not an elaborate flood tunnel system to hide a pit over 500 feet away….
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    I am not sure my friend.. My thinking after reading Joys book and seeing the article on coir softening is something like this… (Pure speculation)

    I think something was being done in Smiths cove that required the obvious effort that was put in there.

    I think possibly more than one thing. If there was a naval stores operation there I could see the coffer dam actually being a sea wall and boats were loaded and unloaded the other side of the wall. Inside the seawall was structure/s like a winch/pulley system for loading unloading ships. To me the u-shapped structure looks like a foundation for some structure. This must have been built inside the sea wall/coffer dam.

    The inside the dam is lower than the sea so the drains were needed to drain away water/rain/seepage etc into the sump. Could not drain into the sea as it was higher than the bottom of the area inside the wall.

    Thus the drains were not directly related to the beach. I think it very much could have been something being dried on the beach. What did they feed slaves? Maybe something like sardines/ edible seaweed etc or the idea that they were trying to soften coconut fibre theory could also fit in with the naval stores theory.

    It could have been a lumber/fishing operation being run off the island. It definitely in my view was not an elaborate flood tunnel system to hide a pit over 500 feet away….
    Good thoughts and it appears logic always wins out over most of the fantasy ideas for things on OI. One thing I just don't buy from your above statement is: "hide a pit over 500 feet away" Come on.... it is not over 500' away. Man, with statements like that we might start calling you a Lagina!

    The most logical ideas are fishing, lumber, shipping use. We still don't know if the entire beach was dug up and covered with ell grass and coconut fibers. Maybe just that little section. The Lag boys will show us as they have never seen any pics of box drains or any other work done on Smiths Cove so until they dig it up, we just don't know.
    Well actually we all know they will find all the scrap wood from previous people excavating the beach, call them ancient flood tunnels and then they finally have the proof they were looking for. Sounds eerily similar to the Money Pit Area....

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch Da Truth View Post
    One thing I just don't buy from your above statement is: "hide a pit over 500 feet away" Come on.... it is not over 500' away...
    lol.. The pit is about 530 feet from smith cove I think I read in Joys book.
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stretch Da Truth View Post
    We still don't know if the entire beach was dug up and covered with ell grass and coconut fibers. Maybe just that little section.
    As shown from this source quoted earlier the coconut fibres were over the whole beach

    Believing now that the flooding tunnels were connected to the sea, men scoured the island's shores. At an area known as Smith's Cove, they found a fascinating structure. The company built a temporary dam, called a cofferdam, to uncover a large overlay made of coconut husk, 145 feet wide and the length of space between low tide and high tide. Underneath the coconut husk was a layer of beach stones five feet deep. Beneath the beach stones were five finger-drains constructed of flat stones, converging into a single drain. The coconut husk worked as a barrier against sand to allow water into the drains.
    I do not believe anyone (writers re OI) have questioned this fact that the fibres were over the whole beach. Even last episode with them finding more fibres supports that these were all over the beach.
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  11. #41

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    So does any member here have an opinion on Joys theory of soil liquidification

    Soil liquefaction describes a phenomenon whereby a saturated or partially saturated soil substantially loses strength and stiffness in response to an applied stress, usually earthquake shaking or other sudden change in stress condition, causing it to behave like a liquid.
    source: wiki

    Click image for larger version. 

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    To me it seems pretty plausible. ie an earthquake cause the top of one of those large cavities underground to collapse. The vibration then cause the soil on top to start to fall into the cavity. The soil liquidification happens and seventy or so feet of soil fall into the cavity in the bedrock. This is replaced with water. When digging the pit they breach the side of this water source. There is the flood tunnel...

    Here are some pics via google images that show examples of the process

    https://www.google.co.th/search?q=so...EgC2QQ_AUICCgB

    This so far is the only plausible (non man made flood tunnel) argument I have seen to explain the water at 100 ft

    Thoughts?
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  12. #42
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    Sorry Gazzahk, I missed "a large overlay made of coconut husk, 145 feet wide and the length of space between low tide and high tide" so I guess it is the whole beach. Lots of reading, sometimes it doesn't register if I am looking at one particular thing.

    As for the soil liquidification, that is a pretty interesting theory. I was unaware of earthquake activity near OI back then and it does make sense to explain the water at 100'. It is not as glamorous as Box Drains and Flood Tunnels so it will not be mentioned on the show for sure.

  13. #43
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    Well The Reason That EVERYONE digs a 100' pit and set flood traps is cause they were storing naval goods.....right

    Not in a fortification, as was known at the time to be the method to this storage, but now they decide to dig the money pit......

    And left a piece of parchment in the bottom just for the hell of it?

    Joy has a ton of proof from times after KNOWN activity there......she ignores the facts to present the theory from a more recent time.

    She has also tried to rip into me on FB Pages while she was selling her theory....and a Book.

    Kinda Old IMO.....the Oak Island standalone theory?
    But he who knows forms, is able to grasp the unity of nature beneath the surface of materials which are very unlike. Thus is he able to identify and bring about things that have never been done before, things of the kind which neither the vicissitudes of nature, nor hard experimenting, nor pure accident could ever have actualized, nor even human thought dreamed of. And thus from the discovery of the forms flows true speculation and unrestricted operation.

  14. #44

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    Yes they do look like log wall logs...with a Swedish Cope, used instead of chinking to keep out wind and weather. In between they may have had anything from seagrass to coir to clay to further tighten them up from wind entering. Common way to build in northern climates...Name:  swedishcope.jpg
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    The building was not IN the cofferdam nor underground, only placed in that area from storm surges destroying the building and pier on which it sat and then covered with silt over centuries of wave action, the same as everything else they had to excavate to find.

    Other pictures clearly show the rafters themselves, the notches, pegs, fascia board, and wood planking for roof...

    So yeah...it is still a roof.

    Any place inhabited by humans had to have salt, including Sweden, Norway, Greenland and northern Russia that are further north than OI and used seawater on the coastal towns to evaporate and then boil it out...The fishing company that owned OI had to have a LOT of salt to process their catches...No they didn't dig out the sand, they processed it from the well found just above high tide line that the finger drains flow into, NOT away from, and could maximize the yield of salt by concentrating it before it went into the process well, and then boiling off the well water on land in the area Dan B found to have scorched rock walls and earth. The shorter season needed a different method of procuring as much salt as possible over just evaporation on non concentrated salt alone...but the method of concentrating salt has been going on for centuries, in ALL climates, and is still used today by companies to get the maximum yield with the least manpower or resources of wood, coal, natural gas, used to do the final boil off.

    Fish drying has always been done with fish hanging so the wind and sun could dry them out, not laying on a beach.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    Fish drying has always been done with fish hanging so the wind and sun could dry them out, not laying on a beach.
    Here are multiple pics of fish drying on a beach

    https://www.google.co.th/search?biw=....0.LX-nwEFG9T0

    https://www.google.co.th/search?biw=....0.z-llx2-LIcY


    Here is an old photo In Nova Scotia of fish drying on a beach

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://novascotia.ca/archives/acadi...D=17&Language=

    Here is drying moss in Nova Scotia

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://novascotia.ca/archives/acadi...D=17&Language=

    Here is a pic of Kelp being dried on a beach

    Click image for larger version. 

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    http://www.123rf.com/photo_7238832_k...ch-to-dry.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    The shorter season needed a different method of procuring as much salt as possible over just evaporation on non concentrated salt alone...but the method of concentrating salt has been going on for centuries, in ALL climates, and is still used today by companies to get the maximum yield with the least manpower or resources of wood, coal, natural gas, used to do the final boil off.
    What method? Show me a single example anywhere that uses water draining through sand, coconut fibre and eel grass (or other equivalent substances) on a significant size beach into a few drains that only sit under part of that beach anywhere else in the world as a way of concentrate salt.

    I have looked extensively and I have not found a single method anywhere ever that is like the one D.King is putting forward in his speculations.
    Last edited by gazzahk; Feb 04, 2017 at 08:27 PM.
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