Alternative Theory - Naval Stores - J.Steele - Page 5
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  1. #61

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    1. any tar pit would have been shown on british naval maps of the day, since they were a necessary function.. Sides there would be some evidence of the tar left. none have surfaced so farr
    Yep... Joy does offer little in the way of evidence. Shape of hole, charcoal in pit, need for stores (edit: forgot - Box that she claims looks like tar funnel, documentary evidence that shows naval stores were being produced in NS, carvings on rocks, trees in area that she claims represent naval store related markings, evidence of British there - old coins etc) and that is about it...

    2. Fish processing also would be on the maps of that period. Other lesser operations were.
    I do not know about this. It may of been a pretty temporary operation and I guess that maps were not accurate then.

    3. Sea level has not risen that much.
    Her evidence of the sea level change is pretty limited. I agree it seems like more evidence should exist if the sea level changed that much in 350 years.

    4. The drainage tunnels were delibertly constructed to lead into the pit.not out
    There is no evidence that the drains were ever connected to the pit. People have looked for it many times and no flood tunnel has been found or blocked.

    5. The soil liquification is feasable but not proven, there would be other evidence, nor does it have a place here.
    That is pretty definite "that it has no place here' how are you so sure?

    6. I still think that the drainage tunnels were a form of a trap to protect whatever was buried there, although access to the deposiory is above the cove level, since they obviously intended to recover it some day, This was probably accessed by a lateral tunel in the fir
    st part of the excavation and now lost.
    I did not think there was anyone that had been watching the show that still believed in the tunnels and treasure... I Think you are wrong but would be happy if they prove you right. I do not think man made flood tunnels exist. No evidence of them has been found

    7 The coco nut fibres and the eel grass were put in the drains for a specific reason, to keep the tnnels as free of debris as long as possiblt. And the drainage is from the cove to the pit..
    As discussed before.. There would be no need to cover the whole beach if this was the case only the drains would need covering.

    8. I can see nothing new, the pit was dug as a distraction while the main room is off to one side above high water level, readily recoverable if the water trap had ben sprung and the pit was full of water
    If there was treasure there down over 100ft depth I do think that it is feasible the treasure hiders would have an alternative method to recover it. This though is an additional reason why I do not believe that treasure was buried at over 100 feet.

    9. The problem still remains "What was buried there" ? I don't accept the Havana operation, since there would be too many naval personel involved, the king had very interesting ways to extract information..
    .
    .
    Out of all the treasure theories put forward British military engenerers soldiers seemed the most plausible. However if treasure was buried by a military operation it would of been retrived and would not still be there.


    Thanks Real of Tayopa for sharing your thoughts on Joys theory...
    Last edited by gazzahk; Feb 06, 2017 at 01:36 AM.
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  2. #62

    Mar 2015
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    From your D. King post above...

    "controlled amounts of seawater through channels in the dyke (cofferdam), would be allowed to permeate the sand on the artificial beach by capillary action. Wind and sun would dry the sand leaving a mixture of salt and sand.(evaporation) The process would be repeated at regular intervals until there was a considerable quantity of salt in the sand. (concentrated) In the meantime the tides would be kept off the beach by the dyke.(cofferdam)" and then inundated (above that 7 foot mark you point out) by letting water in at high tide through the dyke(cofferdam) to then drain through the sand and into the well...as your post of D Kings says

    All of this construction was able to be flooded by high tide, as needed, with the exception of the well which was above high tide level...and obviously controlled by a sluice gate the same as the dyke(cofferdam) was, "letting water in"...

    Ok....so which part of D. Kings would not involve the beach?

    You also said no other serious researchers have considered this theory, and to show you ONE, yet I posted a link with several credible researchers saying that Kings theory was "plausible"...

    What proof do you have that evaporation would not occur? Fish drying occurs as you have proved, how long does it take to dry those fish through evaporation and what is the amount of water evaporated until they are dry? How did people in even further northern climates dry fish with little in the way of wood to burn? And harsher conditions. Through evaporation of course..

    When it does occur in even more northern climates and has been used to make salt, by concentrating, way before OI. That would seem to be plenty of proof that yes it is possible.

    Of course I cannot give you an evaporation rate, it requires more than just an average temp or wind condition as it is not an exact science...wind plays as much or more of a part in the rate of evaporation than temp does, but many other factors also come into play, you are welcome to look up an evaporation calculator and try to guess at the figures needed to get an 'estimate', but they are still just an estimate.

    "saying people needed salt." If you had looked up the documents on salt being restricted from being shipped to the new world until 1762/4, two separate bills that were introduced, that were in the link I posted...you would see not only did they need salt, but it was illegal for them to buy or ship salt from Europe by the British that had control of the area., and once it was legal it was highly taxed...so they still had to get salt (in 1753)...and a lot of it for a commercial fishing operation. Black market smuggled in salt? Sure that could happen, and could also be a reason to build your own salt works rather than pay black market prices..

    You have not convinced me that there were no salt works...As i said earlier, D. kings works, and mine only adds to the salinity level. The obvious use of the word "dyke" to mean the same thing as a cofferdam doesn't change it. He even addresses your '7 foot level' when he describes 'inundating the sand at high tide'...once again obvious reference to the sand bed beach being flooded by opening the dyke to allow enough water in to do that...

    Another thing...the beach was covered with water at low tide so what difference does it make as to the 7 foot level that is below that beach? We know it was covered at low tide because it takes a cofferdam to access that area the drains are in. So an underground 7 foot level is meaningless as it has no effect on the low tide water covering it.
    Last edited by Roadhse2; Feb 05, 2017 at 11:22 PM.

  3. #63

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    From your D. King post above...
    Whoops I added edits to the previous post after you made this one. My mistake it was not intentional to change the previous post if I had realized you replied.

    very sorry
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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    Ok....so which part of D. Kings would not involve the beach?
    D.Kings theory does involve the beach your theory does not.

    You also said no other serious researchers have considered this theory, and to show you ONE, yet I posted a link with several credible researchers saying that Kings theory was "plausible"...
    Your theory is completely different from D.Kings theory

    What proof do you have that evaporation would not occur? Fish drying occurs as you have proved, how long does it take to dry those fish through evaporation and what is the amount of water evaporated until they are dry? How did people in even further northern climates dry fish with little in the way of wood to burn? And harsher conditions. Through evaporation of course..
    You are the one claiming that significant evaporation will occur under these conditions. It will not. Cold water, high rainfall, cold days, short summer, low average temp. D.King also clearly sates
    Because of the relatively cold climate of maritime Canada, producing the salt by solar evaporation was not feasible. The
    Drying fish on a dry beach is a different level of evaporation form removing what would have to bee a few feet of water over 3 months. Put something wet on a beach in the sun see how long it takes to dry. There is photographic evidence of people using beaches to dry fish in NS (supplied previously). How often do people need to refill a swimming pool in cold climates because the water has evaporated out? How many people in cold climates dams go dry over the summer because of evaporation?



    Of course I cannot give you an evaporation rate, it requires more than just an average temp or wind condition as it is not an exact science...wind plays as much or more of a part in the rate of evaporation than temp does, but many other factors also come into play, you are welcome to look up an evaporation calculator and try to guess at the figures needed to get an 'estimate', but they are still just an estimate.
    This does need to be exact. There is 2.5 inches of rain on average in the warm months. Evaporation would need to be more than that to happen at all. Show anything that suggests evaporation of a dam is an excess of 2.5 inches a month in Nova Scotia.. it just is not.

    "saying people needed salt."
    I am not disputing that salt was made in NS. It was boiled like it was made elsewhere. What I am disputing is that your method of making salt would concentrate sea water enough to justify the effort needed.
    You have not convinced me that there were no salt works...As i said earlier, D. kings works and mine only adds to the salinity level. The obvious use of the word "dyke" to mean the same thing as a cofferdam doesn't change it. He even addresses your '7 foot level' when he describes 'inundating the sand at high tide'...once again obvious reference to the sand bed beach being flooded by opening the dyke to allow enough water in to do that...
    That is fine my friend.. You are welcome to believe whatever you wish.....
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  5. #65

    Nov 2015
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    Here is a pic that gives some indication of size of coffer dams

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As this shows from top of beach to wall is at least 100ft

    If a line is drawn in the water at this tide mark (and this is not even high tide) to around where the edge of dam is (my crappy Photo shop skills on display here...)

    Name:  6698185.jpg
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    That is a hell of a lot of water...
    Last edited by gazzahk; Feb 06, 2017 at 01:47 AM.
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  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    You also said no other serious researchers have considered this theory, and to show you ONE, yet I posted a link with several credible researchers saying that Kings theory was "plausible"....
    Sorry just re reading over the posts as I thought I had missed something from what you said. So I went a checked the links given.

    1. Is simply D.King posting his own theory.
    2' Another is simply a person commenting on this theory in a forum
    3. The third is just a site giving a summary of different theories that have been offered to explain the finger drains.

    Where exactly was the link to the 'credible researchers' that say Kings theory was plausible as I would really like to see someone in support of D.Kings theory and why they find it plausable..
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  7. #67
    it
    Sep 2016
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    GAZZ, DID YOU HAVE TO BE SO BRUTALLY EFFICIENT , sigh> However I do have a few questions---.

    4. Then what were the drains for

    5. Soil stratification would have prevented constuction of the pit

    7. We ere in agreement,' only' the drain tunnels would need to be kept open as long as posible.

    8, We are in agreement again. The treasure is in a radially located depsository above the high water mark. a side tunnel does that nicely, and using sinple navigation principals could have been easily located with no prior surface indication or disturbance. jUST A SHALLOW NEW EXCAVATION.

    9. In agreement

    Misc, salt was used in precious metal recovery - patio process - and was heavily taxed since so much salt could produce so much metal, a form of pretax happily enjoyed by the Spanih also. All salt depositories were the property of the crown.


    I'll think of others ,
    Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Feb 06, 2017 at 09:18 AM.

  8. #68

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    However I do have a few questions---. Then what were the drains for
    My current thinking to some extent is based on Joys theory. (Pure speculation)

    I believe that some type of significant operation was being conducted on OI and Smiths cove (This must of been the case to justify the dam and the beach)

    This activity was probably related to naval stores/fishing/lumber/shipping or a combination of some of those.

    I believe like Joy the inside of the coffer dam/sea wall dyke was kept dry. The wall was built to keep the water out. The inside supported some type of ship loading/unloading activity. Boats pulled up the other side of the sea wall. It performed a similar function to the pier showed in those earlier aerial photographs. Ie the water was too shallow for the boats to get closer than the wall. The U-shaped structure is what is left of what was built inside the dam. Maybe the foundations of a crane for helping load/unload a ship. Maybe a building for storage/processing of something.

    The drains were needed because the inside of the dam was lower than the outside at anything above lowest tides. Therefore they needed to be able to drain water from the dry inside of the dam. Heavy rain/seepage/part of the processing used water etc. The drains therefore drained this water back into the sump on land as it could not be drained into the sea at higher tides. The sump was needed to store the water why it drained into the ground or was used up by the workers. The sump may also had the function of providing a source of convenient water for those working on the land. Ie if there were tar kilns then these often caught fire. Maybe the workers used the sump/tank as a source of water to put out the fires.

    I think the drains have no direct relationship with the beach. The beach was built on top of the drainage system to provide a good source of drying something. Probably fish or other sea food.

    Below is an old picture of fisherman using a beach to dry fish in Nova Scotia.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    https://novascotia.ca/archives/denni...wbdisable=true

    The beach was obviously setup to have great drainage. If this beach was now constantly out of water it would have been an excellent place to dry fish (stuff). When rain come the drying stuff was either picked up, covered or simply left to dry after the rain was gone (depending on what was being dried). This beach would dry almost instantly when the rain stopped.

    It may also be the coconut fibres were placed under the beach to be softened as suggested in this article
    The Blockhouse Blog - The Oak Island Compendium Coconut fibre rhetting, it's a thing!

    It was possibly a combination of a few things. Salt may very well have been made there as well. I just do not think the sea water was being concentrated prior to being boiled. If it was being made I imagine they were just boiling the water like was done many places. If this was a naval stores operation making tar kilns there would have been no shortage of wood offcuts to boil as much water as they wanted.

    All of the above is my own speuclations from all I have read about OI……
    Last edited by gazzahk; Feb 06, 2017 at 07:32 PM.
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  9. #69
    it
    Sep 2016
    Mexico
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    Hola Gazz,before I start, I need it even if you don't.

    Why, in your dagram, are the drainage canals converging then going to the pit ?? To drain an area you would do just the opposite. Also from what has been posted the convergiing canals slope towards the pit.. a well thought out protection to cover the pit evidence? From personrl experience, the hardest evidence of a pit is making the evidence appear unaltered, You can make it look normal for a short period then s the soil compacts again and an excavation appears.

    In the old days in Mexico they would hide evidence of an excavation by using a corral, first they would remove the layer of manure,, make their excavaton, then recover with the saved layerof manure, then run the animals over it, and it is virtually undetectable from then on.

    SO' the best thing would be protecting it by a staged excavation, meanwhile making a tunnel, the actual tunnel that leads to a chamber, always above the high water mark, so no matter what happens, you can always recover your 'whatever' at the surface at any time by a simple shallow excavation over your depository, which of course has never been dug, so there is no indication

    So any one digging in your false excavation, unless they had the preknowledge, would miss your depository tunnel, which would be normally well hidden, and missed in the inital excavation, some where above the high water mark.. Ingenuous

    Coir netting? once you have seen it, you would realize why the native south sea islanders never used it for that purpose,



    .
    Last edited by Real of Tayopa; Feb 07, 2017 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #70

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Real of Tayopa View Post
    Hola Gazz,before I start, I need it even if you don't.

    Why, in your dagram, are the drainage canals converging then going to the pit ?? To drain an area you would do just the opposite. Also from what has been posted the convergiing canals slope towards the pit.. a well thought out protection to cover the pit evidence? From personrl experience, the hardest evidence of a pit is making the evidence appear unaltered, You can make it look normal for a short period then s the soil compacts again and an excavation appears.
    Just guessing here… Maybe the bottom of the coffer dam area was not very flat so needed the multiple drains to drain all the water (there may have been a channel leading to each drain). Maybe the building (U shaped structure) had something to do with what the drains were doing and that is why there were multiple ones. Also as shown in the photo the drains are only under a pretty small part of the total beach. If it was just to get water to the sump/pit there would only need to be 1 drain.

    In the old days in Mexico they would hide evidence of an excavation by using a corral, first they would remove the layer of manure,, make their excavaton, then recover with the saved layerof manure, then run the animals over it, and it is virtually undetectable from then on.
    Given that this drain system was at least 250+ years old nature has done a pretty good job of covering up the reasons for everything to do with OI. On top of this 220 years of treasure hunters has done the rest. It may be the case that at the time no attempt was made to hide anything. Any archeological site they find tends to be buried under years of nature…

    SO' the best thing would be protecting it by a staged excavation, meanwhile making a tunnel, the actual tunnel that leads to a chamber, always above the high water mark, so no matter what happens, you can always recover your 'whatever' at the surface at any time by a simple shallow excavation over your depository, which of course has never been dug, so there is no indication

    So any one digging in your false excavation, unless they had the preknowledge, would miss your depository tunnel, which would be normally well hidden, and missed in the inital excavation, some where above the high water mark.. Ingenuous
    You could well be right if the intention had been to bury and hide treasure.. I no longer believe that the beach has anything to do with the pit over 500 feet away. Therefore my speculations are based on – assuming hiding treasure was not the reason – what was?...

    Coir netting? once you have seen it, you would realize why the native south sea islanders never used it for that purpose, .
    I spent three years living in Western Samoa as a volunteer aid worker and saw coconut made rope used for virtually everything. I saw it used repairing fishing nets (never saw a coir net) but pre having nylon nets I would guess they made nets from the coir string/rope they made. The women spent the days making mats the older men making string/rope out of coir (all the actual work was done by the young ). Never really paid much attention to how they softened it but do seem to remember that water and beating was involved…

    Fantastic place..


    here are pics of coir made nets

    https://www.google.com.hk/search?q=c...w=1864&bih=907

    here is an actual fishing net made from coir

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	fisherman-in-wooden-boat-checking-his-fishing-pots-made-from-coir-cxdw91.jpg 
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ID:	1411873

    https://www.google.com.hk/imgres?img...M:&vet=1&w=640
    Last edited by gazzahk; Feb 07, 2017 at 07:23 PM.
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  11. #71
    TJH
    TJH is offline

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    Oak island was not a home for making tar pitch...... Oak island like the rest of Nova Scotia as a mining operation... where in secrecy its knowledgeable patrons mined for Gold ore.... That is why Oak Island is shrouded in secrecy ..... no one would want to tell where they could successfully mine gold..... I wouldn't ..... Would you? ...... However Nova Scotia is home to several Gold mining operations...... Oak Island is smack dab in the middle of Gold Mines..... So there you have it boys and girls.... Very simple and quite easy to understand.....

    Oak Island is home to a Gold (or several) mining operation(s).....

  12. #72
    Charter Member
    ca
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    Hi TJH...And Welcome To The Show!

    Quote Originally Posted by TJH View Post
    Oak island was not a home for making tar pitch...... Oak island like the rest of Nova Scotia as a mining operation... where in secrecy its knowledgeable patrons mined for Gold ore.... That is why Oak Island is shrouded in secrecy ..... no one would want to tell where they could successfully mine gold..... I wouldn't ..... Would you? ...... However Nova Scotia is home to several Gold mining operations...... Oak Island is smack dab in the middle of Gold Mines..... So there you have it boys and girls.... Very simple and quite easy to understand.....

    Oak Island is home to a Gold (or several) mining operation(s).....
    Isn't it Strange...That not one of the many drill bits...never brought up a speck..of Gold Dust?
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  13. #73
    us
    Stretch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robot View Post
    Isn't it Strange...That not one of the many drill bits...never brought up a speck..of Gold Dust?
    Well....it is super secret now so they will not be showing or sharing that info with us common folk ya know!

  14. #74

    Feb 2017
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    So as more of the "stone road" from the swamp is uncovered, does this still fit the premise of naval stores or pine tar kilns? We don't know if the "stone road" goes anywhere or is just a large wharf, perhaps to repair multiple ships with pine tar. There does not seem to have been any spilled pine tar found at the bottom of the timbers at Smith Cove or in the swamp.

    It could still be naval stores, but why would they have needed to transport large amounts of supplies up (and presumably down) the slope with oxen unless they had built a fort at the top.
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  15. #75

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeN View Post
    So as more of the "stone road" from the swamp is uncovered, does this still fit the premise of naval stores or pine tar kilns? We don't know if the "stone road" goes anywhere or is just a large wharf, perhaps to repair multiple ships with pine tar. There does not seem to have been any spilled pine tar found at the bottom of the timbers at Smith Cove or in the swamp.

    It could still be naval stores, but why would they have needed to transport large amounts of supplies up (and presumably down) the slope with oxen unless they had built a fort at the top.
    The road certainly supports some type of industry there. I imagine that if J.Steele's theory is correct timber would of been brought across from the mainland or other parts of the island and transported to the tar kilns and Smiths Cove to be transported etc. That would of probably used oxen to do some of this work of dragging tress around. As well as Pine tar timber was also speculated to being harvested for ship masts and other ship building/repairs. It would of been a significant industry for a while there. She offers the reasons why it was there as other places that used to be used were having a war at the time (do not remember the full explanation). All these type operations moved once the area they were based in has been exploited.

    Her theory has the naval stores operation being run by the Jesuits using slave labor so building things like a stone road over swampy ground would of been pretty straight forward.

    It is a shame the Laginas will not bring her on to share her theory and explain how she thinks what they have found fit her theory.

    To me it seems that her theory seems much more plausible than Knights Templar rubbish being offered by the Laginas.

    I can recommend her book it is a thin book only takes a couple of hours to read.

    https://www.amazon.com/Oak-Island-My.../dp/B00Y3BGVDM
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