Alternative Theory - Naval Stores - J.Steele
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  1. #1

    Nov 2015
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Alternative Theory - Naval Stores - J.Steele

    I have just finished reading Joy's book. I would start by saying it is a very easy and informative read. Well worth the $12 for anyone interested in the Oak Island Mystery (It is only 120 page long only takes a couple of hours to read).

    She gives some great back ground, insights and context of the era (also some cool photos).

    Before I discuss her theory some other interesting things raised in her book in relation to previous discussions in other threads.

    1. Rick Lagina needs to do some research. Dunfiled description of the finger drain finds seems a near exact math to what is shown in this old film clip(around 8-11 mins in )




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    They must of seen this clip because they use cuts of it when showing Dunfiled in there TV show. They must know there is pics of finger drains. He should not be lying to his audience or he should sack his researchers/editors.

    2. Fred Nolans theory is the British buried the treasure and it comes from the sacking of Harvana in 1762

    3. As for no pictures of the stone cross here is one given by Joy and an old map that shows the money pit (another thing the laginas said did not exist didn’t they even read her book?)

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    Joys Theory

    Her theory is that OI was used to make a variety of naval store products by a private company selling to the British navy. The labour used on the island was mostly slaves. The island had at least 3 Pine Tar Kilns. 1) The money pit 2) the cave in pit 3) Smith cove coffer dam

    A tar kiln looked something like this


    Click image for larger version. 

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    The Kiln is buried under ground and drained into barrels. The drains are also under ground (This is needed to stop the Tar catching fire as it very flammable. Under ground it had no oxygen to catch fire. The idea of the pit can be shown on this image (the oak tree/pulley was used to help raise and lower stuff into the kiln).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Her evidence is based around the shape, charcoal remnants, left over ground impression, location, need for the products, British documents that support this was being done in Nova Scotia (Very interesting background on the company that she is saying controlled the island).

    Smiths Cove

    She argues that the structure coffer dam was not a dam and that at this age this area was not under water. She offer this phot as collaboration of the rise in sea levels since then.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The drains were draining the pine tar from the kiln and that is why they are buried under the sand/ rocks etc. All the U shaped structure etc was support for the Kiln

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    She claims that this box sled is actually a tar funnel

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    She points out that this is a reason that all the timber found in the drains etc is in such good condition as it was heavily soaked with pine tar a preserver of wood from the process. She quotes several “experts’ who are supportive of her theory


    She also claims other evidence found may be that of making ship masts (she claims these were soaked in the swamp to season) etc as the Naval stores enterprise made many thins (This is interesting as it may fit with the recent article on softening coconut fibres as well — as Joys explanation for the coconut fibres is pretty poor in my opinion ).

    Click image for larger version. 

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    She claims the reports of fires and lights on the island were people seeing the tar kilns flame up and explode as they often did.

    Flood tunnel

    She gives a very good theory to explain the water at 100ft — soil liquefaction caused by volcanic action and vibration in damp clayey soil. Basically some soil turns liquids’ and flows out to sea leaving a natural tunnel in the remaining soil.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Initial Problems with Theory in my view

    1. Is there really evidence that the sea level rose by that much over 250 years?
    2. Why by 1790s had everyone in the area forgotten that there was a significant enterprise making naval stores on OI that was there until the 1750’s
    3. Why did people think the lights were strange if they new heaps of people were on the island making naval stores
    4. Is soil liquefaction real
    5. She does not really explain the coconut fibres
    6. She claims the chapels vault was so deep because the volcanic action caused the shaft to collapse a significant depth into the cavity’s below (is this a viable explanation).

    This is just a start I hope some others will now join in with some more detailed discussion of her theory/views
    Last edited by gazzahk; Jan 28, 2017 at 02:50 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    I have just finished reading Joy's book. I would start by saying it is a very easy and informative read. Well worth the $12 for anyone interested in the Oak Island Mystery (It is only 120 page long only takes a couple of hours to read).

    She gives some great back ground, insights and context of the era (also some cool photos).

    Before I discuss her theory some other interesting things raised in her book in relation to previous discussions in other threads.

    1. Rick Lagina needs to do some research. Dunfiled description of the finger drain finds seems a near exact math to what is shown in this old film clip(around 8-11 mins in )




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    They must of seen this clip because they use cuts of it when showing Dunfiled in there TV show. They must know there is pics of finger drains. He should not be lying to his audience or he should sack his researchers/editors.

    2. Fred Nolans theory is the British buried the treasure and it comes from the sacking of Harvana in 1762

    3. As for no pictures of the stone cross here is one given by Joy and an old map that shows the money pit (another thing the laginas said did not exist didn’t they even read her book?)

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	1407663Click image for larger version. 

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    Joys Theory

    Her theory is that OI was used to make a variety of naval store products by a private company selling to the British navy. The labour used on the island was mostly slaves. The island had at least 3 Pine Tar Kilns. 1) The money pit 2) the cave in pit 3) Smith cove coffer dam

    A tar kiln looked something like this


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tar kiln.jpg 
Views:	1755 
Size:	760.5 KB 
ID:	1407665
    The Kiln is buried under ground and drained into barrels. The drains are also under ground (This is needed to stop the Tar catching fire as it very flammable. Under ground it had no oxygen to catch fire. The idea of the pit can be shown on this image (the oak tree/pulley was used to help raise and lower stuff into the kiln).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tar pit image.jpg 
Views:	922 
Size:	2.10 MB 
ID:	1407666

    Her evidence is based around the shape, charcoal remnants, left over ground impression, location, need for the products, British documents that support this was being done in Nova Scotia (Very interesting background on the company that she is saying controlled the island).

    Smiths Cove

    She argues that the structure coffer dam was not a dam and that at this age this area was not under water. She offer this phot as collaboration of the rise in sea levels since then.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	evidene of sea rise.jpg 
Views:	561 
Size:	909.1 KB 
ID:	1407667

    The drains were draining the pine tar from the kiln and that is why they are buried under the sand/ rocks etc. All the U shaped structure etc was support for the Kiln

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	u-shape.jpg 
Views:	3332 
Size:	654.6 KB 
ID:	1407668Click image for larger version. 

Name:	u-shape-close.jpg 
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ID:	1407669

    She claims that this box sled is actually a tar funnel

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	box sled.jpg 
Views:	575 
Size:	759.2 KB 
ID:	1407670Click image for larger version. 

Name:	tar funnel.jpg 
Views:	472 
Size:	539.8 KB 
ID:	1407671

    She points out that this is a reason that all the timber found in the drains etc is in such good condition as it was heavily soaked with pine tar a preserver of wood from the process. She quotes several “experts’ who are supportive of her theory


    She also claims other evidence found may be that of making ship masts (she claims these were soaked in the swamp to season) etc as the Naval stores enterprise made many thins (This is interesting as it may fit with the recent article on softening coconut fibres as well — as Joys explanation for the coconut fibres is pretty poor in my opinion ).

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	coconut-fibres.jpg 
Views:	881 
Size:	802.8 KB 
ID:	1407672

    She claims the reports of fires and lights on the island were people seeing the tar kilns flame up and explode as they often did.

    Flood tunnel

    She gives a very good theory to explain the water at 100ft — soil liquefaction caused by volcanic action and vibration in damp clayey soil. Basically some soil turns liquids’ and flows out to sea leaving a natural tunnel in the remaining soil.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	liquid-soil.jpg 
Views:	416 
Size:	788.5 KB 
ID:	1407673

    Initial Problems with Theory in my view

    1. Is there really evidence that the sea level rose by that much over 250 years?
    2. Why by 1790s had everyone in the area forgotten that there was a significant enterprise making naval stores on OI that was there until the 1750’s
    3. Why did people think the lights were strange if they new heaps of people were on the island making naval stores
    4. Is soil liquefaction real
    5. She does not really explain the coconut fibres
    6. She claims the chapels vault was so deep because the volcanic action caused the shaft to collapse a significant depth into the cavity’s below (is this a viable explanation).

    This is just a start I hope some others will now join in with some more detailed discussion of her theory/views
    This is the documentary In the search of the money pit with Leonard Nimoy


  3. #3

    Mar 2015
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    367 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    No time right now, but I will point out one thing...again....

    The box drains were found, by Dunfield, to slant towards shore and end at the well/sump...so any liquid in them would flow into the well/sump...Not slanted out from the "kiln" (well/sump) to empty into anything.

  4. #4

    Nov 2015
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    1720 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    No time right now, but I will point out one thing...again....

    The box drains were found, by Dunfield, to slant towards shore and end at the well/sump...so any liquid in them would flow into the well/sump...Not slanted out from the "kiln" (well/sump) to empty into anything.
    yep that is what she is saying. The Tar kiln was setup against the wall of what is thought to be the coffer dam. The tar would flow back towards the inland.
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  5. #5

    Mar 2015
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    To a 24' deep well?

    From the way she explains the kiln works...doesn't make sense to me that tar would flow the distance of the finger drains to a deep well, and then what part would her wood box play, as she says the tar is drained from the kiln into the box and then into barrels from the box...

    Her illustration of what is supposed to be a pit kiln with tar in it, shows a guy dipping tar(?) into a barrel and then it flows into a box....the opposite of what she says

    Her idea on the pit kiln is ok, but why would there be a 24' deep hole it is stored in? The subsurface part would cool off and become one big chunk..
    Last edited by Roadhse2; Jan 28, 2017 at 11:04 AM.

  6. #6
    Charter Member
    ca
    Mar 2014
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    Oak Island Treasure
    gazzahk...Unless I am greatly mistaken...or hard of hearing...Season 3 Episode 7 stated very clearly right from Fred Nolan's mouth what his "Theory" was...and unless he had a death bed confession to Rick...it was not.."2. Fred Nolans theory is the British buried the treasure and it comes from the sacking of Harvana in 1762"
    The search for "Truth" and "Justice" is my "Prime Directive."

  7. #7

    Nov 2015
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    Quote Originally Posted by Robot View Post
    gazzahk...Unless I am greatly mistaken...or hard of hearing...Season 3 Episode 7 stated very clearly right from Fred Nolan's mouth what his "Theory" was...and unless he had a death bed confession to Rick...it was not.."2. Fred Nolans theory is the British buried the treasure and it comes from the sacking of Harvana in 1762"
    In Joy's book she says that this is what Fred told her.

    One would have to assume Fred found evidence of British naval/military presence somewhere on the island in his search for treasure. Maybe his notion of where those British come from changed a bit over the years.. He may of had a few different theories...
    Last edited by gazzahk; Jan 28, 2017 at 08:43 PM.
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  8. #8

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    To a 24' deep well?

    From the way she explains the kiln works...doesn't make sense to me that tar would flow the distance of the finger drains to a deep well, and then what part would her wood box play, as she says the tar is drained from the kiln into the box and then into barrels from the box...

    Her illustration of what is supposed to be a pit kiln with tar in it, shows a guy dipping tar(?) into a barrel and then it flows into a box....the opposite of what she says

    Her idea on the pit kiln is ok, but why would there be a 24' deep hole it is stored in? The subsurface part would cool off and become one big chunk..
    Yep.. The whole tar kiln in smiths cove seems to have quite a lot of problems. To me the biggest question mark is the claim that the sea level was significant lower and this part was not under water. She offers that photo as evidence.

    I also agree that those drains seem pretty long to have hot tar flowing through. One would think it would cool down much quicker then that.

    The money pit and the cave in pit seem more realistic for her theory than a tar kiln in the cove.

    edit: I can 'sorta' see the U shaped structure does seem to look like the remnants of something that was made to support some type of structure on top of it rather then part of a coffer dam or drain system (going the wrong way to part of the dam and is not a drain).
    Last edited by gazzahk; Jan 28, 2017 at 08:53 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazzahk View Post
    In Joy's book she says that this is what Fred told her.

    One would have to assume Fred found evidence of British naval/military presence somewhere on the island in his search for treasure. Maybe his notion of where those British come from changed a bit over the years.. He may of had a few different theories...
    watch - Project Free Tv

    Maybe...But at 5:40 into Season 3 Episode 7 he says specifically what his theory is!

    I would believe what Nolan said live on TV over Joy...Which leads me to believe what "Idiot" would spend money on a Tar Kiln on a 140 acre island with limited Pine Trees.

    Amazon...Review
    This is a lot of reading for a theory that has more holes in it than Oak Island!
    This book is a huge stretch of reality. Concerning the triangle of stones she calls a "benchmark": I was a surveyor; a benchmark is a fixed elevation or horizontal location, it is not a direction. A surveyor does not need to leave a monument pointing north because the North Star serves that purpose. North is easy to locate! If a direction needed to be marked a surveyor would use a line of stones, or two points not a triangle. This is just one example of the inaccuracies and stretched information in this book. There are many others that are far worse. This book has zero credibility. The possibility of real treasure on Oak island is far easier to believe than the story put forth in this book. There is a lot of verbiage in this book that has no purpose other than to add pages. There pages and pages of detailed information that do nothing to support the books weak theory that the Money Pit was just a place to make pine tar, the caverns a place to store slaves, and Nolan's cross was created by a Church that sold slaves.
    Last edited by Robot; Jan 28, 2017 at 09:57 PM.
    gazzahk, Pippin and sentinalnode like this.
    The search for "Truth" and "Justice" is my "Prime Directive."

  10. #10

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robot View Post
    watch - Project Free Tv

    Maybe...But at 5:40 into Season 3 Episode 7 he says specifically what his theory is!
    True.. but even on the tv show they gave a different explanation of Freds theory when they found the English coins on S.Balls land a couple of episodes back. It is possible that Fred believed the treasure was buried by the British and had a few different theories as to what treasure they buried there. It seems he also told the Laginas at least two different versions of what the British buried there.. The interesting point is that Fred must of found some type of evidence of British (military) presence to believe that it was them that buried treasure in the pit. The British presence is consistent with Joys naval stores theory (Please do not mistake what I am saying for believing her theory is correct) I do not really think what Joy said Fred said to her and what the show has said are that incossitent. ie Fred believed the treasure was buried by the British - who knows where it come from for them to bury..

    Which leads me to believe what "Idiot" would spend money on a Tar Kiln on a 140 acre island with limited Pine Trees.
    I do not think these tar kilns are that difficult to make. They are basically just a whole dug in the ground lined with rocks. Like any forestry operation they were probably dug , used until the area cleaned then abandoned and more dug in the next location.. Having said that this is pretty inconsistent with the argument that Smiths cove was a tar pit. Building that beach was a significant effort when they could of just dug another hole on the hill. She is really clutching at the whole tar kiln in smiths cove part of her theory. Further to this like every other theory re Smiths cove (with the exception of the fish drying theory and the Coir softening theory) her theory really only needs the coconut fibre, eel grass rocks to be over the drains and not the whole beach (I cannot for the life of me think why you would need the cocnut fibres and eel gras over the drains for her coal tar theory actually. If the idea was to just keep the drain airtight).

    She does raise an interesting point though. The U-shaped structure clearly shown in the photos is not consistent with any of the theories re smiths cove (other then possibly the ship dry docking theory). It does look like foundations foe some type of structure/building. (Maybe it was a public toilet for the slaves with the drains sitting under each cubicle and draining into a large compost pit...).

    She may have a point that some type of forestry, naval stores operation was being conducted here but just wrong on the smiths cove bit (not saying I think this but just speculating here)

    -Amazon...Review
    This is a lot of reading for a theory that has more holes in it than Oak Island!
    This book is a huge stretch of reality. Concerning the triangle of stones she calls a "benchmark": I was a surveyor; a benchmark is a fixed elevation or horizontal location, it is not a direction. A surveyor does not need to leave a monument pointing north because the North Star serves that purpose. North is easy to locate! If a direction needed to be marked a surveyor would use a line of stones, or two points not a triangle. This is just one example of the inaccuracies and stretched information in this book. There are many others that are far worse. This book has zero credibility. The possibility of real treasure on Oak island is far easier to believe than the story put forth in this book. There is a lot of verbiage in this book that has no purpose other than to add pages. There pages and pages of detailed information that do nothing to support the books weak theory that the Money Pit was just a place to make pine tar, the caverns a place to store slaves, and Nolan's cross was created by a Church that sold slaves.
    This review in my view is a bit harsh. The book is actually quite a good read even if you do not agree with her conclusions (which I do not). She does give some quite interesting background and does raise some pretty plausible speculations in parts of her theory. She also does try to stretch other facts to make them fit her theory.

    The bit I find the most interesting is actually her explanation for the water at 100 feet. ie soil liquidification I would like to know how likely/real this actually is.
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  11. #11
    us
    Stretch

    Jan 2017
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    sasquash - Thanks for putting up the In Search Of episode. I dont remember if I ever saw it back then.
    That was a cool show back in the day!

  12. #12

    Mar 2015
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    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    After reading it...I agree...a lot of fluff to get to nothing...

  13. #13

    Nov 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roadhse2 View Post
    After reading it...I agree...a lot of fluff to get to nothing...
    I was thinking...

    Speculation:

    Assuming Joy is somewhat right about the lower sea level... It may bee that the 'coffer dam' was just a bank to keep out very high tides and that no/little water was in that area inside at all. There may have been a structure/building there. If there was a significant forestry/fishing/something enterprise happening they may of had a dock the other side of the coffer dam to load/unload stuff. The drains may have been simply to drain away what was happening on the flat bit of land inside the coffer dam (maybe some seepage to I suppose).

    It may be the artificial beach has nothing specific to do with the drains....

    (all pure speculation)

    It may be the U shaped structure is remnants of the base of a loading/unloading crane to help transfer stuff to and from ships.
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  14. #14

    Mar 2015
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    Sorry....nope..

    The U shaped structure is pretty obvious to be a roof of some type, even to having some roofing planks and fascia board still in place...and they also show a overhang to direct water away from the side of the building, just as we do now. Pics also show the other end of those 45 degree up right rafter pieces cut to the same slope as the fascia boards to accommodate a ridge board. I have those pics but will have to ask if I can release them to you, via PM. There are also notches cut into the top of the rafters to let one side of the overlapped roof planks sit flat to the one below that it overlaps, just like a shingle would, without having to taper the whole roof plank. There are also other pics of the same type of roof construction being used in that part of the world from the time period, on fishing stations. The roman numeral hash marks are also indicative of a roof being built first on the ground, and then put in place on top of the building piece by piece, a method still used today by log builders to do the work in the easiest way, at walking ground height instead of harder to handle roof height in the air...cutting notches, drilling for pegs, etc etc.....Even with stick building now, we cut rafters on the ground, not in the air on the building because it is unwieldy to do so...

    So anyway...that part is done for me....it walks like a duck, it looks like a duck, it is a duck...
    Last edited by Roadhse2; Jan 30, 2017 at 03:59 AM.

  15. #15

    Mar 2015
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    367 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting
    You also said it could not be a salt works because of the slope of the bottom inside the cofferdam...yet that would have no effect on a salt works if it did slope...

    Now "that flat bit of land inside the coffer dam"?

    You can discount the salt works theory all day long, it is still the only one that has some known facts associated with it being so. Not speculation...

 

 
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