Templar Research

[lokiblossom]

From the Archaeological Fantasies blog"

Firstly, the language and the lack of case sensitive modifiers used on the stone was not what one would expect from 14th century Norse. Certain words in the inscription were not in use at that time (Wahlgren 1958, Fridley1979:152, Fagan 2006:119, Williams 2012:13), however, those same words were common to the area that Ohman’s friend, Sven Fogelblad, was from (Fridley1979:153). Fogelbald was an itinerant teacher and former minister originally from an area of Sweden well known for having lots of authentic runic inscriptions lying around, and who had known and apparently studied under Claes J. Ljungstrom, himself a widely known and prominent runologist (Fridley1979:153).

Also suspect were certain runic symbols that were not known to the Futharks (the name of the Runic Alphabets) in use in the 14th century, but again these were know to Fogelbald and apparently were rather specialized to his particular region of Sweden (Wahlgren 1958, Fridley1979:152, Fagan 2006:119, Williams 2012:13).

At first blush there appears to be several versions of the Futharks at use on the stone’s inscription. However, sometime in 2004 it was suggested that the runes mimic those in the notes of an 1883 journeyman named Edward Larsson. Honestly, the only place I can find reference to this is on the Wiki and their reference is in Swedish. My Swedish is not good enough to read a whole paper, sorry. In the same paragraph the runic inscription is tied to the Knights Templar, so, take that how you will (I call it a red flag.)

Based on all this, Blegen put forward the probability that the stone had been carved by two separate individuals working together and that several individuals were involved in the hoax beside Ohman and Gran, including Fogelblad, and Andrew Anderson, Ohman’s neighbor (Fridley1979:153)."

...and...

"Blegen focused particularly on an interview done by Dr. Paul Carson, Jr. in 1976 with Frank Walter Gran about Frank’s father, John P. Gran (Blegen 1968, Fridley1976:154). The interview centered around John confessing that he and Ohman had carved and hidden the stone as a prank against “people who were really educated (Fridley1979:154).” This was significant because it was suggested that the inscriptions were carved by two different individuals, one right handed and one left, and John was left-handed (Fridley1979, Blegen 1968). "

There is also evidence in favor of the stone which you evidently failed to read. As I said, I don't wish to argue the point but there is much more to the story than a wikipedia article. You would do well to investigate a little further if you are indeed interested. Yes, some do link it to a Norse, Templar group, and there were a few of those, but again the Order was dissolved in 1312 and any surviving Templars would have been too old to have made that walk. There was a Norse priest that traveled to Greenland and possibly beyond beginning in 1360 who also became a prime candidate and if the story ever does go anywhere I pick him.

Cheers, Loki

 

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[grossmusic]

In tomorrow's preview there's a claim that the piratical Jolly Roger is the Templars' symbol for John the Baptist. HUH? Jolly Roger by definition is the laughing DEVIL. Hardly a patron saint. And its use does not go back before the 17th century as far as I know.

But who am I to question someone with the last name Cornwall?

This feels like a big stretch, & I'm appalled that no one on the OI team is challenging her on that. I would want to know her answer about how she HISTORICALLY drew the conclusion about the Jolly Roger's connection to John the Baptist.

I wish this thread were connected to Shipwrecks for treasure divers to chime in.

 

[Al D]

In tomorrow's preview there's a claim that the piratical Jolly Roger is the Templars' symbol for John the Baptist. HUH? Jolly Roger by definition is the laughing DEVIL. Hardly a patron saint. And its use does not go back before the 17th century as far as I know.

But who am I to question someone with the last name Cornwall?

This feels like a big stretch, & I'm appalled that no one on the OI team is challenging her on that. I would want to know her answer about how she HISTORICALLY drew the conclusion about the Jolly Roger's connection to John the Baptist.

I wish this thread were connected to Shipwrecks for treasure divers to chime in.

It has been proposed by some researchers that when the Knights Templar were arrested in 1307, the Templar fleet moored at La Rochel France departed before they could be captured, this fleet is supposedly, the fleet which became pirates, acting in proper fashion as war vessels. The relation to John the Baptist comes from the notion that the Templars worshiped John and even may have recovered his head while in Jerusalem in 1145.
if you believe this sort of thing.

 

[franklin]

Nope, John the Baptist was the Hospitaler Templars, the sworn enemy of the Knight's Templar. The Hospitalers was the ones that the King of France gave all of the Knight's Templar's property to after October,Friday, 13th, 1307. As for the "Jolly Rogers" pirate flag, it has more to do with individuals that broke off from the Knight' Templar and later became the "Freemason's" at the turn of the 18th Century. The "Skull & Crossbones" were for "Adam" not "John the Baptist" John the Baptist head is under a column in a church.

 

[lokiblossom]

Nope, John the Baptist was the Hospitaler Templars, the sworn enemy of the Knight's Templar. The Hospitalers was the ones that the King of France gave all of the Knight's Templar's property to after October,Friday, 13th, 1307. As for the "Jolly Rogers" pirate flag, it has more to do with individuals that broke off from the Knight' Templar and later became the "Freemason's" at the turn of the 18th Century. The "Skull & Crossbones" were for "Adam" not "John the Baptist" John the Baptist head is under a column in a church.

The Templars "Patron Saint" was neither John the Baptist nor Adam, it was the same person as that of the Cathar faithful of Southern France, the wife of Jesus "Mary Magdalene", or as some refer to her "The Black Madonna". Most French cathedrals were dedicated to her, and it was her story that inspired the Grail romances.
The Cathar religion itself evolved from earlier Gnostic groups that first appeared in Southern France in the very early 2nd century. These organizations actually worshiped "The Magdalene".

Cheers, Loki

 

[franklin]

Believe what you want but Adam was the "Skull" on the Jolly Rogers. Why do you think the place where Jesus Christ was crucified was called "Golgotha" the place of the Skull?"

When you decipher the "Jolly Rogers" "The Skull and Crossbones" You have "JESUS JESUS JESUS"

 

[Singlestack Wonder]

In tomorrow's preview there's a claim that the piratical Jolly Roger is the Templars' symbol for John the Baptist. HUH? Jolly Roger by definition is the laughing DEVIL. Hardly a patron saint. And its use does not go back before the 17th century as far as I know.

But who am I to question someone with the last name Cornwall?

This feels like a big stretch, & I'm appalled that no one on the OI team is challenging her on that. I would want to know her answer about how she HISTORICALLY drew the conclusion about the Jolly Roger's connection to John the Baptist.

I wish this thread were connected to Shipwrecks for treasure divers to chime in.

The show continues to make up fiction and bring in all wackos who can fill in air time..... "Jolly Roger is the Templars' symbol for John the Baptist"...what a joke!

Next they will be claiming peter amundson wasn't a crackpot....

 

[Raparee]

The show continues to make up fiction and bring in all wackos who can fill in air time..... "Jolly Roger is the Templars' symbol for John the Baptist"...what a joke!

I think that the claim is 'borrowed' from Scott Wolter who made similar claims in his comedy series "Pirate Treasure of the Knights Templar". I'm not sure where Wolter 'borrowed' the idea from.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

So I'll play here a bit. The Knights Templar were never dissolved in Portugal. The king there just changed their name to Knights of Christ. A number of Portuguese explorers were Knights of Christ. The Portuguese developed the caravella - great for long distance ocean journeys. We know the Portuguese were here in Nova Scotia. Heck even Champlain knew that. Seems to me that the focus should really be on the Knights of Christ if one wishes to pursue the Templar connection. Using the term "templar" seems to rile up a few folks and yet the Knights of Christ presence here is entirely possible and that does equate to the templars. Couple of examples of Portuguese explorers who belonged to the Knights of Christ who came over here: Gaspar Corte-Real, Miguel Corte-Real

Well, wasn't COLUMBUS, a KNIGHT OF CHRIST...? Did HE have old KT maps...?

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Which "Jolly Roger"? Some had no skull at all. Or bones.

Each pirate ship had their own version of the Black Flag . . . or red in some cases. The original term is the "Pretty Red" (Fr. Jolie Rouge) flown to indicate no quarter would be given unless the ship under attack surrendered.

It wasn't "standardized" until R.L. Stevenson wrote "Treasure Island" in 1881.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Interesting that on Oak Island tonight when they got news of the possible lead cross mine location being near Rennes Le Chateau they did a flash back scene of their trip to France. The scene showed a gentleman walking out of a doorway to greet them and just above him on the outside of the building was the classic "pirate" skull and crossbones.

I wonder why it is there on that building?
I wonder how old the building is and if that is an original design?

Could it be a representation of something other than pirates? - sorry couldn't resist!

Now if you were looking for the origin of the skull and crossbones vs jolly roger a simple naming difference results in much more information.

Wait for it....

The symbol is an ancient one, becoming widespread with the medieval Danse Macabre symbolism. From at least the 12th century, it has been used for military flags or insignia and as a warning of the ferocity of the unit displaying it. It became associated with piracy from the 14th century onwards, possibly even earlier. By the 15th century, the symbol had developed into its familiar form.

The Knights Templar organisation, active from the 12th century until their demise in 1307, adopted a skull-and-crossbones flag to identify ships belonging to their vast fleet. [3] The skull and crossbones as a pirate's flag could well predate the Knights Templar [4]

BOOM!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_crossbones_(symbol)

 

[grossmusic]

There were a few 18th-C pirates who did stylize their flags, but most just flew plain black or red (or none, or false colors of friendly nations to lure in their prey).

A lot of interesting theories here!

 

[Simon1]

Interesting that on Oak Island tonight when they got news of the possible lead cross mine location being near Rennes Le Chateau they did a flash back scene of their trip to France. The scene showed a gentleman walking out of a doorway to greet them and just above him on the outside of the building was the classic "pirate" skull and crossbones.

I wonder why it is there on that building?
I wonder how old the building is and if that is an original design?

=========
I saw that too Au Dreamers . Coincidence ?

 

[lokiblossom]

Believe what you want but Adam was the "Skull" on the Jolly Rogers. Why do you think the place where Jesus Christ was crucified was called "Golgotha" the place of the Skull?"

When you decipher the "Jolly Rogers" "The Skull and Crossbones" You have "JESUS JESUS JESUS"

Because, as well as the hill being shaped like a skull it was where all Roman prisoners convicted of sedition were executed. And I must thank you for allowing me to "believe what I want".

Cheers, Loki

 

[franklin]

Adam was buried beneath where Jesus was crucified. The quake that hit the area split the stone beneath where Jesus was crucified and Adam resurrected ascended into Heaven. So now tell me how the hill looks like a skull.

 

[Raparee]

The symbol is an ancient one, becoming widespread with the medieval Danse Macabre symbolism. From at least the 12th century, it has been used for military flags or insignia and as a warning of the ferocity of the unit displaying it. It became associated with piracy from the 14th century onwards, possibly even earlier. By the 15th century, the symbol had developed into its familiar form.

The Knights Templar organisation, active from the 12th century until their demise in 1307, adopted a skull-and-crossbones flag to identify ships belonging to their vast fleet. [3] The skull and crossbones as a pirate's flag could well predate the Knights Templar [4]

BOOM!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_crossbones_(symbol)

If you read the source material that Wikipedia bases that passage on, you will doubt it's credibility. Take this gem for example: "If one was really game, one could draw comparisons between a pirates wooden leg - bared below the knee with the trouser leg rolled up, and the candidate for 3rd degree, that of a Master Mason, in Freemasonry being similarly attired… and even further, maybe at the extreme limit of where only Fool’s don’t fear to tread, is the pirates hunt, seizure and secreting away of treasure - just as legend ascribes to the Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon - the Knights Templar. "

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

Adam was buried beneath where Jesus was crucified. The quake that hit the area split the stone beneath where Jesus was crucified and Adam resurrected ascended into Heaven. So now tell me how the hill looks like a skull.

Why would Adam be buried there? The Jews never entered into "the Promised Land" until after Abraham, and never were in Jerusalem until after Moses died.

And the whole "Garden of Eden" story is likely allegorical. ;-)

 

[lokiblossom]

Adam was buried beneath where Jesus was crucified. The quake that hit the area split the stone beneath where Jesus was crucified and Adam resurrected ascended into Heaven. So now tell me how the hill looks like a skull.

All hills look like skulls, just like all clouds look like teapots!

Cheers, Loki

 

[franklin]

Why would Adam be buried there? The Jews never entered into "the Promised Land" until after Abraham, and never were in Jerusalem until after Moses died.

And the whole "Garden of Eden" story is likely allegorical. ;-)

You mean you do not the story of Adam and Eve. They were buried. They were dug up. And they were buried again. Do you know where Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph are buried? Do you know where Cain killed Abel and where they tended their gardens? I thought you knew all about the scriptures. Not all went to the "Promised Land" either.

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I'm fairly well versed on the Scriptures (Adam (his skull at least) and Eve were buried at Machpela in Hevron by Shem, Noah's son, but that's not Scripture). I just don't buy into the Apocrypha at all, and the Adam & Eve story is likely just an allegorical mortality story. As was Noah & the Flood. Convenient to get everything close together - to lend credence to a Jewish presence in the area.

I go with Evolution. But I do concede we don't know enough yet to disallow that God established the natural laws of how things like atoms and gravity must behave billions of years ago. The only "laws" we can't bend or break. Since then He seems to be pretty much letting things run on their own.