The Pearl Ship

[pegleglooker]

HOLA mi amigo Pegleglooker! Thank you for asking - been busy as h-ll and often don't get home so can't get online much. Fortunately now that the cattle are in the summer pasture (branding etc is done) I hope to get home more often. I hope you are doing well and look forward to more of your posts.
your amigo in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Hey Roy,
If you have any " extra " steaks, I can eassssssily send you my address < hint hint > LOL

PLL

 

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[surrealpillow]

Thanks for the info bobinsd! hope to hear more from you.
As for Juan DE Iturbe, someone mentioned contacting the Spanish archival records.
There are two books that anyone specifically researching him might be interested in:
A New Island Biography of the Sea of Cortez
which mentions him and his exploits in the first chapter.
And:
Geographic and Hydrographic Descriptions of Many Northern and Southern Lands and Seas in the Indies, Specifically of the Discovery of the Kingdom of California

Which was written by Nicolas De Cardona, who supposedly was in charge of the fleet from which the 'pearl ship' came. After getting injured, he and a ship returned to Acapulco leaving Juan De Iturbe in charge. He does mention De Iturbe several times and may record him loosing a ship.

I haven't read either in their entirety, although I plan to. So far the only thing I've read that actually mentions De Iturbe loosing a ship was The Voyage of the Flame which was a fictional book and seems to be the basis for most of the myths found on the internet.

 

[pegleglooker]

Hi Surreal,
There are a few books that mention De Iturbe, he is mentioned quite a bit as a kings " snitch " while on trips going to Australia. But the reason for the search in the archives is to " prove " that he did indeed lose a ship. Because if that REALLY happened then the king would want to talk you.... that's for sure..... I have some records from the archives, just not the one I'm looking for. If Iturbe ( actually it's spelled Yturbe ) did lose his ship he would have to explain himself to the king and there should be a record of this. This record should include where the ship was lost and a record of his journey back to the gulf. According to what I read, his ship had a crew of 100 men, yet only less than 10 people made it back alive. One of these men was the king's scribe, and he would have made a record of the whole ordeal. This is the record that I'm looking for, I have a approximate area that I think the ship was lost in and this record would either agree or disagree with my findings. If it agrees then tha next step is to head out a MD the area and see if anything shows up...If anyone knows a " cheap " way of getting the records I'm listening.....

PLL

 

[surrealpillow]

hello pegleglooker! Its nice to toss ideas around with someone interested in the same story.

If I'm not mistaken, at the time in question De Iturbe was employed by the Cardona company which was granted an exclusive licence by the Spanish government for pearl fishing in the sea of Cortes. I'm not so certain the king himself was too concerned with one particular caravel being lost, but De Iturbe would definitely have to answer to the Cardona company because thats who owned the ship. Again I could be mistaken on some of this, please correct me if I am. According to some reading I did today on the subject, De Iturbe actually lost several ships to Dutch privateers in these waters during the course of ten to twenty years, but still no mention of a landlocked ship. What are your thoughts on the story of a certain family coming to El centro poor in the early 20Th century and leaving rich? reportedly building a pig pen out of the old timbers from the ship. I don't know the family's name off hand.

Also do you find the maps, or renditions, regarding the extent of lake cahuilla helpful at all in forming your opinions?

 

[Isayhello2u]

Re: The Pearl Ship (research funding)

PL is there anyway to set up a non profit research fund type thingy to answer the archive question.
i'd be willing to add a miniscule amount (not more than $10.00) to something like that. if enough curious people chipped in. we could get the answer.

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
Sayhello, I thought of that same thing, meaning if we all " pooled " in some funds, maybe we can get up enough cash together to find out the answer. Anyone up for it ?? I just don't know if there are enough people to raise the $ 1000. Surreal, the farmers name was Nels ( short for Nelson ) Jacobson, he hired a 17yr old kid by the name of Elmer Carver to watch over his farm and wife while he went to LA. While he was out, his wife showed Carver some of the gems he dug out from the buried ship. I have researched this and have PROOF that Jacobsen did live in Imperial ( I found land deeds and records of where his 700 acres of land was at ),and did have a hog ranch. There is a newspaper article that states " Jacobsen came to Imperial with $4000 and left 7yrs later with over $130K.. That's alooooooottt of pigs in only 7yrs....Story goes that he ( Jacobsen ), did a 3way split between himself, his attorney, and a LA pawnbroker to sell the gems. If you think that he doubled his intial investment in the hog ranch, that would mean there was about nearly $400K worth of gems. And I'm sure he didn't get top dollar for them. For me I would love to find the bell, so I could really pi$$ of some arche who say " I deal in history... not legend ". It would be HUGE kudos for the MDr family.....

Here is the article on Jacobsen, the old guy is Carver in the 1960's....​

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Here is a directory from 1914 that shows that Jacobsen did live here...
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Here is a plat map showing the area where Jacobsen had his ranch...​

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Enjoy
PLL

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
I thought you guys might like to see what a archival document looks like and just how hard it is to read. Remember this is " old Spanish ", and sometimes the type of language and the meaning of the words may have changed. It's not just translating words, but the meanings behind them as well.

PLL

​

 

[tapoutking]

Awsome. But like someone stated above, the roc picturing the ship has oars? Unless the artist saw the ship actually in the water, how would they have known about the oars? hmm... Makes me think that the location of the rock means little in regards to the location of the ship itself.

 

[Old Dog]

Awsome. But like someone stated above, the roc picturing the ship has oars? Unless the artist saw the ship actually in the water, how would they have known about the oars? hmm... Makes me think that the location of the rock means little in regards to the location of the ship itself.

Agreed but the picture gives credence to the legend.
That says a lot in regards to what most stories give.
lots of folks chase smaller evidence.

 

[bobinsd]

Personally, I don't see the oars. I see a first attempt on the left, then, since there was no "delete" button, the artist drew a better version on the right. Also, since the sails are set, it indicates the observer saw the ship in the water, and the vertical stripes are like those on pics of longships found on Google.

If I had a vehicle I would investigate the area my self. The Laguna Salada is visible from the location. I have the coordinates, and would be willing to share if someone is interested.
Bob

 

[pegleglooker]

hey gang,
I think the oars are the lines surrounding the bottom of the " hull " of the ship. The appear as oars....

PLL

 

[bobinsd]

Here is an enhanced view...I hope.

 

[bobinsd]

OOPS! here it is.

Bob

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

The oars depicted in the rock carving could be a key to identify what kind of ship and the most likely people to have been sailing it, which could be MUCH older than Spanish Colonial times. (Viking, Phoenician etc.)
Oroblanco

 

[pegleglooker]

Oro has a point, and I would like to ad I wonder what the meaning is of the 2 " human " drawings. One is sure to be male and the other, has a black item in one hand, and a white item in the other. Plus what is the meaning of the symbol it is facing ?

PLl

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[ghostdog]

The lines below the ship could be oars or maybe fishing nets or both ? , also the cross with the 2 lines and circles above it may be a map?..On another note I recall seeing a black/white photo of a vikeing ship with its front bow sticking out of the side of a mountain. I dont recall the name of the book, but it was at the Northridge, collage library,where I used to do a lot of research.

 

[bobinsd]

Can you imagine how difficult it must have been to create a representation without the benefit of any metal tool.

Could the squiggly line at the bow be an attempt at drawing a serpent's head? I think the ship on the left was a "first try" that the artis was dissatisfied with but there was no "delete" button. Certainly there must be someone who can decipher the symbology.

Bob

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Thank you Pegleglooker for pointing out the odd symbol. I have no theory as to its meaning, sorry to say.

Bobinsd wrote

Could the squiggly line at the bow be an attempt at drawing a serpent's head?

That could indeed be a serpent's head. It is tempting to make the 'leap' to conclude this must represent a Norse ship; however the Norse were not the only people to use figureheads on the prows of their ships; for instance ancient ships of Carthage often had a horse's head on the prow, ancient ships of Tyre frequently had a swan; Sidonian ships often had a depiction of the strange dwarf god Bes (complete with feather headdress) and so on. A swan could "fit" with that squiggled line about as well as a serpent - so I am not ready to make conclusions (yet) as to what kind of ship it is supposed to represent. I think we can safely rule out any kind of canoe however!
Oroblanco

 

[Isayhello2u]

Re: The Pearl Ship rock carvings.

much as i love the legend - and I think the carvings are a neat addition to the legend part of this...
- I don't know of an easy way to date rock carvings. but even though each Indian tribe had their own area, their young men like young men everywhere did on occasion travel here and there. I can see one inscribing something he saw on a rock as he is telling others about something he saw. and these Indian travelers to the gulf and back
would have had several chances to see ships, once gulf exploration got under way.

so it could be a representation of the
Rus (a viking like people ancestors of Russians ) , a Chinese or Spanish explorer or a Pichilingue (dutch pirate)
or even something more recent like a whaler. I do remember a story and I think it was in one of bancroft's histories
about one of the very early Spanish explorers up the California gulf finding some foreign people (sailors?) someplace along the shore doing some smelting.
there were explorations around the coast and even up the river like Alacorns. Alacorn on the river would have had to have used oars.

 

[ghostdog]

Felt this might be the best thread to place this imfo,slightly related,but not entirely,oh-well, A Dutch pirate named Spillberg overhauled and robbed the Pearl fishing vessel of Iturbi,and I believe this to be close to La Paz where Corte"s found a colony.