Query to the DCNR on relic hunting in ghost towns in PA forests

[mjmil53]

Here is my question to the DCNR and its reply:

Are there any regulations other than leave forest as you found it? I haven't been able to find any on the internet. Thanks

Metal Detectors on SFL

The use of a metal detector on State Forest land does not currently require a permit. The digging for metal objects is restricted to shallow surface disturbance using a hand trowel or other similar narrow probing device such as a screwdriver. Be sure to fill in any spots where you create a small hole or divot with your digging tool.

The use of a metal detector and the related digging is not permitted within the boundaries of designated Natural and Wild Areas. Also, probing is not permitted under the surface of the water in a pond, lake or stream on state forest lands. Any archaeological salvage project sites are off limits to probing for any reason.

Persons seeking to find historical artifacts on public land must obtain permission to do so from the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission. Anyone who finds an “Archaeological Specimen” on state forest land is required to surrender the item at the local district office. Such items remain the exclusive property of the Commonwealth under the authority of the Historic Preservation Act.

DCNR - Bureau of Forestry

Tiadaghton State Forest

423 E Central Avenue

S Williamsport, PA 17702


For someone who has never done any MD but is really wanting to, this is quite disappointing. Where can one go to MD and keep what they find?

 

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[robbuckalew]

I called Big Pocono State Park and there is no problem with metal detecting there. They said I can keep what ever I find.

 

[jeff of pa]

I always Wondered About State Forests But was afraid to ask.

Their Site says State Forests are open to Just about Any Recreational
Use Imaginable. This Is Good enough for me.

First Let's Break your Letter up.



The use of a metal detector on State Forest land does not currently require a permit.

COOL ! No Asking Necessary.

The digging for metal objects is restricted to shallow surface disturbance using a hand trowel or other similar narrow probing device such as a screwdriver. Be sure to fill in any spots where you create a small hole or divot with your digging tool.


also Cool Digging is Alowed as long as you don't use a Spade Shovel
and as long as you Fill your Holes.

The use of a metal detector and the related digging is not permitted within the boundaries of designated Natural and Wild Areas.

What is a "Designated Natural Area" ?

I would Imagine Designated Wild areas would be Wildlife Preserves.







Also, probing is not permitted under the surface of the water in a pond, lake or stream on state forest lands.

This one Goes against the Right to Pan for gold which is allowed.

Any archaeological salvage project sites are off limits to probing for any reason.

Not worthwhile anyway if they are working it.

Persons seeking to find historical artifacts on public land must obtain permission to do so from the Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission.

I'm Not Going there Looking for Historical Artifacts, I'm looking for
Coins & Relics. So I don't need to Ask.


Anyone who finds an “Archaeological Specimen” on state forest land is required to surrender the item at the local district office.

Again, IF I find what I Consider an "Archaeological Specimen” I'll be sure to turn it in.

Sounds like a Good Deal to Me.

 

[lumbercamp]

This shouldn't be disappointing at all. I do quite a lot of my digging on State Forest Land and I always fill in my holes. DCNR puts out a map of all of their property and each section of Pa has a map, such as the Elk State Forest, the Moshannon State Forest, the Cornplanter and Clear Creek State Forest. All of their property is shown in green on the maps, along with the natural and wild areas which is off limits. There is a lot more of their property open for digging then what is off limits. Stop in at any DCNR office and these maps are free for the taking.

 

[jeff of pa]

I called Big Pocono State Park and there is no problem with metal detecting there. They said I can keep what ever I find.

Same at Swatara State Park

and Memorial Lake State Park

 

[lumbercamp]

You guys are confusing State Parks with State Forests which are two different things.

 

[jeff of pa]

You guys are confusing State Parks with State Forests which are two different things.

No I'm Not

We Are Compairing Both

And DCNR Runs Both

You are right on Different Reg's Though
Verbal Permit is suposed to be Obtained For Most State Parks.

 

[Schrecky]

Presque Isle State Park in Erie allows MD'ing on all of it's beaches, no permint required.

 

[jeff of pa]

Miscellaneous Recreation
State Forest land is host to an almost endless list of other recreational uses. These include astronomy, dog sledding, geo-caching, gold panning, jogging, hang gliding, ice-skating, motorcycle riding, orienteering, photography, rock climbing, rappelling, sleigh riding, sledding, snowboarding, snowshoeing, spelunking, swimming, snorkeling and tubing. All these and more are permitted uses of state forest land.

 

[jeff of pa]

"archaeological specimen" means an object or specimen found in an archaeological site of archaeological, ethnological or historical importance, interest or significance and includes explorers' documents;

http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/pr/agr/nunavik/mareg/arti20_e.html

"archaeological site" means a site or work within the NMR of archaeological, ethnographical or historical importance, interest or significance or a place where an archaeological specimen is found, and includes explorers' cairns;

 

[Kiros32]

That actually is good news. That opens up quite a bit more land for me.

 

[mjmil53]

Hey thanks all for the good information. It's much appreciated. Now I just need a Detector and I can do some of this.

 

[deepskyal]

Some things just really get my goat and turn me into some real mean ahole.

That letter 007 posted is about enough to really tick me off.

Someone paid for those shells, paid taxes on those shells, and yet the state claims it's legally theirs if someone finds them on the ground?

What if I'm the one who was hunting, a casing ejected on the ground and off i go to collect my bounty, and later decide I want my casing back? If I have trouble finding it and employ a detector to find what was rightfully mine, does that mean I lost my ownership to it?

Hogwash!

Same goes if I'm hunting for game, I find a nice spot to sit and wait for some deer to cross my path and see a couple spent shells on the ground and pick them up and stick them in my pocket. I guess I just broke the law by "stealing" from the state.

Poppy-cock!

Okay, I just shot a deer, my casing ejected into some brush. I look for it til I "find" it. I just broke the law because it is a "found" object.

Huh?

You can really skew the law any way you look at it!

How many hunters out there are even remotely aware of the rediculous laws set down by the state?

How many more folks detecting out there, without knowledge of forums and legal bullcrap, are merrily walking afoot in "OUR" forests and getting some gung-ho trooper with a bad hair day giving them some of the chip from their shoulders?

Laws should NOT be open to interpretation! Black and white...period!

I can come up with as many rediculous scenarios as they can stupid laws and make them look equally ignorant to what they are saying as to my interpretations.


And just what does the state do with all those precious "found" casings? I'm sure they're on display at some museum somewhere that I just don't know of the location of yet.

"And here folks, this 30-30 shell was used to kill a small doe, and the one next to it killed a 160 pound buck. These shotgun shells, found randomly by some casing criminal, which we fined him $100 bucks, are unknown at this time for what they killed."

How absolutely absurd!

Or maybe the state saves them until they have a couple hundred pounds and cash them in for scrap!

Dang! This is just too Orwellian! When do they start taxing the air we breath and dictate to us just how many breaths of fresh air we're allowed in a given amount of time?

I know this should be in the rants section, but Dang it anyhow...I pay taxes and it's my taxes any way you look at it that gives me the RIGHT to use MY land. I don't care what state law says...it's my right!

Somewhere, somehow...someone's gonna get this unjustice fixed.

A bunch of old geezers sitting around a table telling me what I can and cannot do....hum-bug! A bunch of power hungry, greedy #@&**%^.

Al

 

[robbuckalew]

In a far shorter version...I SECOND THAT!!!

 

[jeff of pa]

I believe this is the Reason for the Bullet Remark

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,140575.0.html

 

[deepskyal]

Hmmm...Dent's run treasure.

Still, what a bunch of red tape. And if indeed they meant casings of historical importance, then it should be stated as such.

Outside of my time in the army, I've always been a Pennsylvanian. At 52 and being an avid reader of the news for probably the last 20 years of my life, I've come to the conclusion that Pa. is the most crooked politically state in the U.S.

The "Good-old-boys" days were suppose to have been wiped out with the last of the big bosses in New York years ago. Not in Pa.

I've been in a lawsuit against a township that went all the way to the federal level and charges filed under the Rico Act. Unfortunately, the Senator I was working with seemed to be equally involved in the conspiracy, and was voted out of office and is now cooperating with federal officials on some things going on within the state so is exempt from prosecution.

But that's my whole point. It isn't any different in the DCNR or Pa. fish and game, whatever. They all have this buddy, buddy system and make their own rules and are exempt from any public input.

Does anyone even know when they created these rules exempting us from detecting the parks? They just kinda seemed to come out of the woodwork, conveniantly.

I spent years trying to avoid politics. I was heavily involved back in the late 70's and was disillusioned back then. Somehow I keep getting sucked back in when every time i find something I enjoy...there's some stupid crappy rules barring me from enjoying myself to the extent i feel is my right as a tax paying citizen.

I never claimed to be a patriot, quite the opposite...I'm the rebel...I stand for what I believe.
Now...a hobby so simple, so enjoyable, so little destructive in nature....and I can't dig a 4" hole in a million acre woodland to find something lost to man!

I started detecting back about 1980 or so. No computers, ignorant of any kind of laws preventing me from detecting Gamelands or places like it.
I remember going to Pithole,Pa. A big sign clearly stating "No metal detecting"

When I saw that, my conclusion was, if it isn't marked clearly, it's fair game.

They'll put signs up telling you how and where to let your dog poop, they'll put up signs for camp fires, they have those big signs that say "Welcome To Pa. State Game Lands, Please Hunt Carefully." A bunch of fine print on them but nothing saying no metal detecting.

And honestly, if it wasn't for this forum, I'd still be ignorant of any laws preventing me from metal detecting or treasure seeking in the woods.

Dang you anyhow Jeff!

But then again Jeff, maybe you saved me a ton of money by keeping me away from that DCNR guy with a hang over and bad breath from confiscating my detector and car and whatever else they think they are legally entitled to when I'm busted digging long lost artifacts in the middle of the woods.

Or...just maybe when I get myself situated with house buying, I'll have to put the gloves on and start sniffing out that sympathetic official that will guide us to a change in how things are done.

I personally have enjoyed the solitude of detecting in the middle of the woods where i suspect there may have been an old lumber camp or mill...I've come across that old foundation from time to time.....
By golly......I enjoy a good fight!

Sorry this is such a politically oriented rant Jeff, but it IS a Pennsylvanian's concern.
Al

 

[jeff of pa]

Personally I have not had any Problem with DCNR
I believe the Majority are Good People.


You are correct most do make their own rules.

whether out of ignorence of the law or just knowing the law
is open to interpretation Also Depends on the Officer.

Back when they were called DER I had one Who Did the Coal Mine
Run (Federal Mine Inspector) would stop & BS everytime
he saw me detecting somewhere.
It was Obvious he was Intrigued by My Finds & The Hobby.

Also Ran into a State Historical Commission Officer Putting up Signs while
I was detecting in a Cemetery. (Another Story, All Perfectly Legal)
He Never Asked me once What I was finding. All he said was "That's Alright
What your Doing" when I Asked about the Signs. & "I was Going to Suggest they get Someone with a Detector" When I said Why I was Doing it.

I'v never Run into a Fish Commission Officer & Have never received
Permission from A Game commission Officer.

Have 99% Success with Local Police
Turned down Once, Asked if he Minded if I went over his Head,
Did, & Got Permission.

& 100% Success with State Police.

99% success with Local Governments Recreation departments
and Borough Authorities
Have only been turned down once by each.

 

[handy]

dont know if this applys at all
Community reacts to report on Game Commission officer
By HEATHER LESKANIC



Rodney Bimber has been accused of being too aggressive in law enforcement.


CLARION - A Pennsylvania Game Commission officer who has been accused of being too aggressive in law enforcement is again making news after being the subject of a Pittsburgh television station's investigation.

Clarion attorney Blair Hindman estimated he may have handled 30 or so cases in Clarion County over the last year that were filed by conservation officer Rodney Bimber.

Hindman said his success rate has been above 90 percent in having the charges either dropped by prosecutors or his clients found not guilty.

He said a fair number of the cases "are not game related."

"That's the main problem," Hindman said. "He's not a police officer."

He said he has heard from numerous individuals, including other attorneys and those in law enforcement, since the WTAE-TV4 report ran Feb. 28.

"We want (Bimber) to obey the law," Hindman said. "That seems to be the consensus."

Calls seeking comment from Bimber at the regional game commission office in Franklin were forwarded to spokesman Jerry Feaser in Harrisburg.

Feaser said the report did not represent the full story, but did not immediately provide further explanation.

The report included statements from Feaser including that Bimber, who was named officer of the year by the organization in 2005, is not abusing his authority.

"If the local judges and the district attorney don't want to protect state game lands, it doesn't mean that the game commission will abdicate its role and responsibility to do that," he told WTAE reporter Paul Van Osdol.

Horseback riders have been cited repeatedly by Bimber and other game officers for riding on a narrow strip of state game lands.

Clarion County District Attorney Mark Aaron said he dropped charges against 34 people who were cited in October.

"I personally feel very harassed by this organization and unjustly," trail rider Brenda Biedrycki said in the WTAE report.

Aaron said he has complained to top game commission officials.

"I wish the game commission would take a serious look at what's going on here in Clarion County with officer Rod Bimber and the enforcement of game law here," Aaron said.

Several years ago, the game commission requested a local district judge be removed from hearing game law cases.

Clarion County President Judge James Arner declined the commission's request that District Judge Duane Quinn be removed due to alleged bias.

Commission officials said it was an unusual request prompted by concerns about lower prosecution rates while Quinn was serving in the Paint Township court as well as alleged comments regarding the game commission during Quinn's November 2003 election campaign.

Arner said he decided against removing Quinn from the cases because he found the parties differed on the facts and that "disputes of this nature are more appropriately dealt with through evidentiary hearings and appeals."

Hindman said the majority of individuals he's represented over the years "are honorable people" and feel they are being harassed by Bimber's office.

"That's why they fight these citations," said the attorney. "I don't think the game commission really cares. They don't take honest, law-abiding citizen complaints seriously."

A case that received significant attention a couple years ago involved five Clarion University students who were swimming in the Clarion River when a game commission officer showed up and ordered them to get out.

They were then detained for nearly an hour until a state police officer showed up.

"We thought there was no way someone can tell us we cannot put our clothes on, that five girls can sit there in their bra and underwear with a man standing there with a flashlight telling us, no, you can't get dressed," former Clarion student Jessica Kretz said.

Bimber said he suspected the students of underage drinking.

Hindman said Bimber had no right to detain them.

"He held them even though these weren't game lands," he said. "This wasn't any kind of game investigation."

The charges were dismissed in that case.

Van Osdol asked Bimber about the incident.

"Get the whole story," Bimber told him. "You're the reporter, you figure it out."

Hindman said out of all the cases he's defended, "no one's ever poached a deer."

Bimber has been the subject of internal investigations, according to WTAE, but the game commission says he has not been cited for any wrongdoing.

Van Osdol asked Bimber about Aaron's criticism of his actions.

"What's your response to him?" Van Osdol asked.

"I have no response," said Bimber.

Aaron said he is just trying to be reasonable.

Gov. Ed Rendell was also interviewed for the television report, saying "it's a fine line between what's effective enforcement and what's overly aggressive enforcement."

"We should make sure that line is not crossed," he said.

Hindman said he is hopeful for change through the legislature as the game commission is an independent agency.

 

[lumbercamp]

Deepskyal, it was only about 5 years ago that the Game Commission made it illegal to detect on State Game Lands. I used to dig bottles in the ghost town of Norwich, but since it is located on Game Lands it is no longer legal to dig there.

 

[deepskyal]

That sounds like the typical "rotten apple in the barrel" Handy. I'd have a hard time thinking a lot of game officers are like that.

Some people, when they put on a uniform, just get power mad.

I agree with Jeff that for the most part, these guys are okay.

But that's also why I think the laws should be black and white. And too, that's why I feel rules should be posted.

It seems when any Md'er requests information, they have a difficult time getting their requests fulfilled. There's too many differences on who you talk to, where you want to detect, what part of where....and what punishment fits what crime.
It is a good example of an extreme Handy, of one man going above and beyond. I have seen others suggest just the opposite, the enforcement officer saying enjoy yourself and have a nice day.

Pennsylvania still has the worst open records laws in the country. I sure would like to find out exactly when this rule was passed and why. It's tough for an ordinary citizen to exercise his "freedom of information" right.

Sounds like some rainy weather project to keep someone busy.

Al