Silver Manipulation? You dont say! How low exactly can it go?

TheRandyMan

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Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Ya think? But...here is a bit of an article that purports to give the inside scoop...

From Avery Goodman, first posted on Seeking Alpha

Anatomy Of Silver Manipulation - How Low Can It Go?

As we warned our readers on May 1, 2011, when silver had clawed its way back to about $48 per ounce: “We expect another massive price attack in the next few days.”

We came to this conclusion based upon a number of factors, including the impending opening of the Hong Kong Merchantile Exchange, which will be controlled by many of the same international players who control NYMEX. Like clockwork, a vicious attack, perhaps the most ferocious one ever mounted in the history of precious metals, began on Monday, May 2, 2011. We knew it was coming, but to be honest, we didn’t expect the level of ferocity. Following our own suggestions, when silver had tanked by about 18%, we entered into a small speculative long position, using the SIVR silver trust. The price punched right through the minor support level we had chosen, and continued down.

Had we realized the depth of the silver short seller despair, we would have played the game a bit differently. We would have waited longer, bought a lot more later on, and created a much longer term position. As it is, we have lost nearly nothing, and will do it anyway. Nevertheless, as irrational as this kind of thinking is, and as much as we warn people against it, human beings are human beings and we are not happy about putting on a little bet, no matter how small, that fails to catch the bottom of a dip.

The level of despair among short sellers, which is motivating this attack, is growing. Anything could happen at this point. They could give up entirely, or the attack could become more ferocious. We don't know. What we do know is that the short sellers' predicament has just grown worse. They will eventually become even more desperate than they are now as weeks and months pass by. We will explain why shortly.

New and ever larger performance bond deposit requirements are being announced by the NYMEX so-called "clearing house risk committee" (performance bond committee) almost every other day. On top of these substantial increases, the individual clearing members are often making even bigger demands and hiking up performance bond requirements even higher.

We cannot help but wonder if some of these clearing members are themselves short silver, or if they are deathly afraid that other clearing members will default, leaving them footing the bill? Or are they trying to help attack their own customers? To the extent that a clearing member is raising performance bonds above the level of the exchange, customers should say goodbye and never do business with them again.

According the official spokesperson for CME Group, which owns NYMEX, the performance bond increases are designed to address "increased risk". If this were so, however, such changes would apply only to short sellers and new long buyers who purchased up in the higher price ranges. Most of the older long buyers were sitting on huge profits from the upward movement of silver, when the new bond requirements were imposed in the $49 range. They posed no greater risk at all than they did back when they made their purchases at $18, $20, $25 per ounce, etc.

But the exchange and its dealers don't play the game that way. Instead, they apply these changes to everyone, even people who may have bought when silver was down near $18 per ounce, even though these older position holders pose no greater risk of defaulting than before. The exchange committee members are quite expert at all this, and are well aware that the net effect of what they were doing would be to throw people involuntarily out of positions. The effect is carefully calculated and thought out, and is part of the overall process used to artificially control silver prices.

Coupled with the sudden increased performance in bonds, there has been an all-out media effort to convince people that a “bubble is bursting” even though, as we will shortly explain, anyone who is worth his salt as an analyst knows it isn't true. There has NEVER been any bubble in silver in 2011, and therefore, it cannot possibly "burst”. There has simply been an unwinding of a grossly underpriced asset that has been subject to a multi-year price suppression effort.

Be that as it may, this downturn provides, for the first time in a long time, more than mere gambling opportunities. Highly leveraged and undercapitalized speculators have been kicked out of their positions, and they had pushed the price of silver up very fast. It would have gone to the same levels, anyway, and beyond, but the process would have been slower and steadier if the market had been limited to cash buyers and well-capitalized investors.

We have been carefully observing the methods used in this attack and have reached some conclusions. The attack is not sophisticated. It is NOT rocket science. The method is so simple that it is astounding that so few people see it for what it is. Regulators could put an end to it any time they want to. They simply don’t want to. That means, of course, that they are essentially complicit. There are genuine folks over at CFTC, like Commissioner Bart Chilton, but they are operating at an agency which is structurally corrupted, with a revolving door swapping employees to and from the regulator and those who are supposed to be regulated.

The current price attack involves an overwhelming creation of transient short positions that last less than one day. This is expensive to do in terms of upfront cash. But it isn't quite as expensive as it may seem at first glance. Each day, except on Friday, May 6th, more than 10,000 short positions appeared to be transiently created, closed and recreated during the trading day. This must have required posting at least $180 million in performance bonds. However, to give credit to the ingenuity of the manipulators, most cash is recouped by the end of the trading day. With access to Federal Reserve loan windows, putting up an infinite amount of upfront fiat cash in the morning of a trading day is no deterrent.

From what we can see, this is what they are doing, in a highly coordinated fashion:

1) Either using control over the exchange committee system to induce sudden hikes in performance bond requirements, or opportunistically using such hikes. The hikes soften up the market by causing an initial destabilization of accounts of overleveraged long position holders. Some of the big clearing members of NYMEX have enhanced this effect by raising their own requirements higher than the exchange committee, and thereby softening up their own customers more substantially;

2) Using analysts to make extensive commentary to the mass media to the effect that the “silver bubble has burst” in the hope of inducing fear in the marketplace, further softening it up, in preparation for step 3.

3) Using trading “bots” to transiently create thousands and, sometimes, tens of thousands of intra-day short positions, designed to soak up opportunistic buying by better capitalized long side oriented investors. The flooding of the market with this paper supply of imaginary “silver” prevents futures based prices from rising and triggers stop-loss orders among leveraged customers.

4) Closing most intra-day positions into the mass of involuntary liquidations. Sometimes, “artillery” is left on the battlefield by the close of the day. This happens when transient short positions cannot be fully unloaded. In other words, the bots are competing with heavy buying from well-capitalized buyers who now want to pay the "bargain" prices created by the bots, and taking over those positions before the bots have the opportunity to buy them back. This shows up as a net increase in the “open interest” in silver, even as the price is falling. That aberrant result is impossible if a bubble were really “bursting”, because we would have run out of such buyers by now;

5) Rinsing and repeating the same process the next day, and on various days after that, allowing for a few “up” days centered around points of natural technical support, in order to preserve plausible deniability.

Again, CME officials claim that the sudden margin changes are motivated by “high volatility”, and that their actions are not a cause for the recent crash of silver prices. That is disingenuous at best. The changes are not “motivated” by high volatility -- they are the initial cause of the volatility. They knowingly destabilized the accounts of highly leveraged buyers. Those buyers were highly leveraged because the exchange previously encouraged high leverage by marking down performance bond requirements. Sudden upward adjustment of performance bonds creates an opening for trading “bots” to move in, and helps make the manipulation less costly.

If performance bonds were never set in the first place, at ridiculous ultra-low levels, then suddenly raised, then suddenly lowered, over and over again - which is exactly what the exchange has done for years - prices would be stable. Substantial performance bonds, kept the same at ALL times, would mean no "pie-in-the-sky" undercapitalized long buyers drawn into the market. The ability of the manipulators to flush them out, collect their performance bonds, and periodically crash commodity prices would end.

In that scenario, silver and gold would transform back to their 10,000 year old role as the most stable stores of value that exist, and conservative investors would convert their fiat cash, stocks and bonds into precious metals. That is a nightmare scenario for western central bankers, because it is a severe threat to the long term profits of the commercial casino-banks they service, whose tight control over the world economy facilitates the sale of derivatives and control over the contingencies that trigger such derivatives. This tight control cannot exist in an honest money gold/silver base monetary system, and is based primarily upon control of paper and electronic money printing presses

But, in spite of the incredible power of the central banks standing behind them, short sellers are losing this war. Their surface “success” is an illusion. Instead of escaping from liability, their liability is growing. In spite of the propaganda machine, the attack by clearing members against their own customers, and the trading bots, buying interest has remained incredibly high. This is exemplified by the fact that not all of the tens of thousands of transient intra-day short contracts have been closed by the end of the trading day. That is NOT a sign of a bursting bubble but, rather, of just the opposite.

In a normal market, the cost of a relatively fixed supply of goods will always result in rising prices when the number of purchase contracts rise. This is because demand has increased while supply has stayed roughly the same. But, not in our corrupted futures markets. On Tuesday, May 3, 2011, CME Group records show that the silver bars underlying 23 contracts were delivered. That should have reduced “open interest” contracts by 23. Instead, there was a net INCREASE that day of “same-month” positions by 10 contracts. In other words, short sellers will now need to deliver 165,000 additional ounces of silver this month.

On Friday, May 6, 2011, the short sellers must have been proud of themselves. They were able to deliver 243 contracts, or 1.2 million ounces of silver, which is a huge amount. But, the open interest for May delivery only declined by 13 contracts, which means that the artificially cheap prices attracted 230 new long contract buyers who paid cash. The new contracts will need to be delivered this month. As hard as it must have been to find the silver for May 6th delivery, they are now forced to find another 1.15 million ounces somewhere.

The so-called “spot” price is now largely irrelevant, but short sellers have still not acknowledged that fact to themselves. Intense physical silver demand continues. This is amply illustrated by continued backwardation. Dealers at COMEX and the LBMA may create fake prices at will, but the cash market is their achilles' heel. Short sellers have put paper silver on a fire sale at the futures exchanges. Yet they have not improved their position by doing so. They have, instead, insured a worse problem. Cash buyers put the fear of God in the hearts of silver manipulators. Cash buyers can put them into bankruptcy, destroy their power over the market, and discredit the futures markets, LBMA and the central bankers by inducing multiple defaults.

New “urban” myths about mysterious eastern billionaires buying up silver have spread quickly. On April 28, 2011, silver was selling for a high of $49 per ounce. The open interest had fallen to as low as 129,711 as short sellers slowly capitulated, and serious cash buyers took the bait. Allowing higher and higher fiat prices was effective in allowing open short positions to be closed, which is what short sellers must do before it is too late. On one day, for example, in early Asian trading, prices rose temporarily by over 10%. Asian short sellers were breaking ranks and buying back positions at any price. Then the bull-headed spirit of their European and American comrades awoke, and the current attack on silver prices began.

The market is NOT becoming dispirited or shell-shocked, as would have once been the case under similar conditions. Instead, we are seeing heavy buying by well capitalized long buyers who have probably read Andrew McGuire’s emails. They now know the score. They know that this is simply a manipulation event. As of May 5, 2011, the open interest had already risen to 134,804. The evil “Empire” is facing 5,093 new long positions. Two hundred sixty six of those are “same-month” positions, bought with a 100% cash, and need to be delivered this month.

Tens of thousands of other positions have changed hands. The trading “bots” managed to close most of their intra-day shorts into margin calls and stop loss orders, but have not accomplished much in terms of the level of open interest. Tens of thousands of existing contracts plus 5,093 additional hard long positions were unintentionally created by the trading bots, and all of these are now transferred from undercapitalized longs who would never have taken delivery, into much stronger hands.

The percentage of contracts, going forward, that will be forced into delivery as the months pass, will rise as a result of the transfer from weak to strong hands, and the silver short sellers’ problem is now bigger. New buyers have streamed in and bought at lower prices. That is the natural response of any bull market to a major manipulation event like this one. Silver is in a secular bull market. That has not changed as a result of a manipulation event. In fact, nothing has changed, except the unfavorable position of the silver short side manipulators, who are facing a much worse picture now than they did before they started this manipulation.

They have collected performance bond “candy” from undercapitalized investment “babies”. But, they need much more. Short sellers need to create the type of dispirited shell-shocked market they managed to create in late 2008. The effort, back then, made use of the demise of Lehman Brothers to offload hundreds of billions of dollars worth of short positions in all the precious metals in the OTC derivatives market. So far, however, this manipulation event isn't working very well. The only way to bring the number of positions down is to allow the price to rise substantially.

If they abandon the effort now, as Friday's action implies they might, it will be impossible for them to shift their short term price reduction into a longer term situation of altered market perceptions, which is their end goal. The Federal Reserve can give them as much cash as they need to mount as many paper-based attacks as they want, but it can’t give them physical silver. Short sellers will need to “put up” or “shut up”. They need to pay the price for their misconduct over many years.

Short sellers have proven to be so bull-headed that one has to doubt whether they will do the smart thing. The next move might be to flood physical markets with newly “cashed out” baskets of silver bars from the SLV silver trust stockpile. That might dampen pressure from increasing demand, and might even meet the immediate need for physical delivery in the OTC cash markets. Over the long run, however, assuming that the price remains discounted, the bars will quickly disappear and as they raid the stockpile, others will buy SLV shares and also raid the stockpile. SLV may end up stripped of its silver.

Does SLV really have the full amount of silver claimed? It does have a solid-seeming inspection report that says it does. If it doesn't, we may be finding out soon enough. If those who have been dismissed as paranoid people end up being right, and there is not enough silver in the stockpile to cover claims, jail cells will be waiting. The CME Group clearing house risk committee can raise performance bonds to 100% of the amount that long buyers paid for their positions in silver. They can even raise it higher than that, but only at the risk of jail cells, and/or triple damages that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy for its individual members. Meanwhile, manipulators can continue to flood the market with bidding-bots and intra-day transient short positions. They can theoretically absorb all the buying pressure if they are stubborn enough.

They can continue to raid the SLV stockpile to make deliveries, and spin those withdrawals to the media as the "public getting out of silver". But this is not 1980. No one remotely similar to Nelson Bunker Hunt is relying on bank financing to corner the silver market using leveraged positioning. Price pressure is from the cash physical market, not derivatives. COMEX is relatively irrelevant. Nothing the manipulators can do in derivatives markets will relieve the physical market pressure.

Short sellers have replaced weak hands with strong ones who are much more likely to take delivery. This manipulation episode will dramatically unwind, just as it dramatically began, when silver short sellers capitulate, as they must. Prices will shoot far beyond the recent high levels. “Bottom picking”, therefore, may be nice but it isn't absolutely necessary. The prospective price appreciation over the next few months or years should overwhelm any differences in price right now. It won’t matter whether you bought at $50, $40, $35, $20 etc. In a few months, the price will likely be back up, and, in a few years, the price will be many multiples of all those numbers.

Technical support levels still have meaning because manipulators want it to be so. Cash fueled trading “bots”, filled to the brim with Federal Reserve funny money, can be programmed to open as many transient intra-day short positions as needed to punch right through any support levels. But manipulators must preserve an illusion of natural market movement. We can expect loose adherence to chart patterns, allowing bounces where appropriate, and then, punch-throughs.

The only way a psychologically depressed market could now be achieved is by crash prices beneath the long-term trend line, which is around $22.50 per ounce. This would require hundreds of millions of additional trading bot dollars to do. They might try it, at some point, but more likely, they will give up for the moment and return to a slow capitulation. Even if they do push prices down below $22.50, we doubt it would work for very long. Such a battering would cause heavy technical damage, but as noted, this market is not being driven by technical trends.

If they don't achieve the sub-$22.50 level, even most technical analysts relied upon by the big non-manipulation-involved hedge funds and other big players will assume that the silver bull market is still running and that this is merely a deep correction. They will buy back in and run the price back up. In other words, if the manipulators do not achieve a sustainable self-perpetuating shell-shocked market, as was achieved in late 2008, the manipulators will not be able to close short positions without great losses.

It may be possible to use technical analysis to make intra-day, or multi-day gambles on bounces. We would not feel comfortable, however, with recommending that this be done with substantial capital, because the manipulators could suddenly attack again at any time. If they decide to punch through the strong technical support level at $33-34, they will do so with everything they've got. They will need to take down the price very quickly because they need to get it done before so much of the month has passed that they will be impaired in their ability to gather silver to make delivery in the OTC market.

You must think long term now before entering this silver market, because you may well get stuck with a silver position for a longer term than you may expect. But if the manipulators do press the price down below the $22.50 level, you should buy with every dollar you have available, because even though things will look bleak by then, with every media outlet heralding the "bursting of the silver bubble", a few months later, the price will be back to way above $50 again. Prefacing the big fall will probably be a huge technical rally in the U.S. dollar, and a big fall in the stock market. These events may not happen until the end of QE-2 in late June.

On the other hand, if you don't buy now, and, instead rely on the forlorn hope that manipulators will push hard enough to take prices into $20-22 level, you may well lose the excellent opportunities that now exist. There is no way to know, in a manipulated market, whether the manipulators will decide to punch through a particular support level. As we have stated in previous articles, the better way to deal with this is to pick a reasonable price level acceptable to your pocketbook, put in a buy order, and wait. If your buy order is successful, and the price turns up immediately, great. If not, be secure in knowing that you have a long term view, and a position in an asset destined for much more appreciation than we've ever seen before, over the next few years.

In short, it is time to stop thinking about short term gambling, because no metric you use is safe against the depredations of a manipulation that regulators refuse to stop. Buy with the long term in mind and wait for the market to punish the manipulators, which it will. Take physical delivery if you buy at the futures markets. Remember, the primary value of precious metals is NOT in making “big money” from gambling in the banker-controlled gambling casinos. We have always strongly suggested that only very small gambles like those you would make in Las Vegas should be made on a speculative basis. But buying on big dips, like this one, is not a speculative undertaking. It is long-term investing. The long term power of silver, like gold and platinum, is to preserve the buying power you’ve worked for all your life.

The powers-that-be want the U.S. dollar and all other paper fiat currencies to lose value every year. In fact, 2% inflation is their openly stated goal. If you consider compounding, that is an inflation rate that destroys the value of money very rapidly. But the true inflation rate in America is already closer to 6%, not anywhere near the low official numbers that the government likes to report to the media. With a huge increase in the amount of circulating funny-money liquidity around the world, including but not limited to the U.S. dollar, inflation is likely to rise much more sharply from here forward all over the world, not just in the U.S.A. The willingness to tackle this inflation, on the part of policy-makers, is very limited because serious efforts involve a lot of pain to powerful constituencies.

Investing in precious metals means converting U.S. dollars, pounds, euros, etc., into hard "money" that can be manipulated in price, but which cannot be debased. Manipulation has its limits, and since it appears to have been happening in the gold and silver markets for decades, in one form or another, the unwinding that is now beginning will just get more intense with time. No matter what technical support levels they target and take out, the short sellers are not going to extricate themselves without paying big bucks. Knowledge of how the price suppression scheme operates is in the public domain, and it is highly unlikely that manipulators will succeed in shell-shocking markets with their shenanigans, nor suppressing prices, for any significant period of time.

The next step to control prices for several more months will be borrowing enough money from the Fed's loan windows to keep their trading bots active whenever some type of opportunity presents itself, and to become even more aggressive using control of exchange mechanisms to continue sudden increases in performance bonds. Because SLV shareholders tend to be unaware of the fact that they are dealing in a manipulated market, they continue to buy and sell the trust at whatever the spot price may be manipulated to. Thus, short sellers can use opportunistic futures markets attacks to raid SLV silver stockpiles "on the cheap".

This should allow them to obtain enough silver to meet physical delivery demands, and even to periodically flood physical markets. Meanwhile, the reduction in the stockpiles will be spun into a claim that the "bubble is bursting" as "big players" "sell" SLV shares. In fact, they are not selling at all but, rather, cashing shares for silver to meet delivery demands. We doubt, for this reason, that the speculations about impending COMEX defaults have any basis in fact.

Silver investors should understand that the ride is going to be a roller coaster, as it always has been. Going forward, the intensity of that thrill ride is likely to increase proportionally to the desperation of short sellers. The biggest threat to silver prices will be the supposed end of QE-2. Short sellers are likely to view it as another opportunity to attack. But July is also a big delivery month in silver, and the delivery demand will be considerably higher than now, as a result of this price attack and the replacement of weak hands with strong ones.

If the manipulators had strong faith that the cessation of QE will save them, they wouldn't have launched the ongoing attack we are now suffering through. The most likely outcome of the end of quantitative easing (if it really happens) is another opportunistic, but short term manipulation of the silver market, and a crash of stock and bond markets. And, when that happens, people will turn around, load up on precious metals, and force the price back up. The trading bots will need to be turned off for a while after that, lest they bankrupt their operators.


Ok..maybe that was more than a BIT of the article...lol... :headbang:
 

Marchas45

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Mar 22, 2009
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

This article has me thinking mmmmmmmmmmmm :(
 

jim4silver

Silver Member
Apr 15, 2008
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Whenever someone raises the issue of "silver manipulation", I always want to ask "why don't any of the large institutions such as hedge funds, banks, etc, ever manipulate the price upward?"

The really big institutions are not bothered by the increase in margins which arguably the smaller traders are, but it seems it is always manipulators to blame when the price goes down. But when price goes from 18 to 50 in a matter of months, it is the natural market demand or because the manipulators have stopped manipulating for awhile?

My view is that if paper markets can so strongly control a physical commodity, then there is no real shortage or there is no real demand, otherwise the physical buyers would be in such great force that the physical would disappear in the market and its price would split from the paper markets (which it will someday when the dollar crashes much further than it has now I believe, but we're are not there yet no matter how much wishful thinking takes place by some online pundits and newsletter writers).

I am a silver bull and I read all the articles I can find, even the "kool aid" writers' articles. But it is easy to understand all that has to be done to END so called "manipulation" is to buy physical. But unfortunately the problem is that when the price gets near 50 there is a lack of buyers, both small and big investors.

How many here who think silver "should be" 150 per ounce were running out and buying when it was 50? Even better, how many of those who think it "should be" 150 are buying today at a mere 37 or so? Anyone who is a true silver bug and wants to get as much physical silver as possible in their possession should give thanks to these so called manipulators, because if it is due to the their actions silver stays low, then it thus allows us to buy physical cheap (at least for now).

Jim
 

mts

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

jim4silver said:
Whenever someone raises the issue of "silver manipulation", I always want to ask "why don't any of the large institutions such as hedge funds, banks, etc, ever manipulate the price upward?"

Amen. I don't doubt that silver and gold price manipulation goes on. But I don't believe that it goes on to the extent that it could have caused the short term crash that we saw last week. I can search hundreds of sites and eventually find someone who "predicted" that the price would crash soon. Except when it doesn't. And they never print a retraction.

Why don't these people ever predict when silver is going to rally by 30% in a month? And why don't they ever get called out when they predict drops that don't end up happening? Picking and choosing the blogs/news/opinions you choose to follow is no different than "having your head in the sand". And we've all heard that statement before now haven't we? :P

I'm sure that there is some truth in the article. Maybe even more truth than fiction. Heck, I'm not smart enough to even understand what they are saying. But hindsight is always 20/20. It's easy to analyze happenings after the fact and make them fit our view of the world. That doesn't mean that they are correct.
 

jim4silver

Silver Member
Apr 15, 2008
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

mts said:
jim4silver said:
Whenever someone raises the issue of "silver manipulation", I always want to ask "why don't any of the large institutions such as hedge funds, banks, etc, ever manipulate the price upward?"

Amen. I don't doubt that silver and gold price manipulation goes on. But I don't believe that it goes on to the extent that it could have caused the short term crash that we saw last week. I can search hundreds of sites and eventually find someone who "predicted" that the price would crash soon. Except when it doesn't. And they never print a retraction.

I guess my issue is with the word "manipulation", is that it is used as if a crime is taking place. I do believe that certain groups, institutions, etc, have a vested interest in shorting silver and other PMs, because that is how they make $$$$ in one way or another. But there is nothing that would stop wealthy and powerful hedge funds or other large powers from doing the same thing in reverse and making silver go up. If there is a law or laws that favor the shorts explicitly and punishes the longs I would then agree that there is manipulation. Nobody I believe can post a link showing that is taking place (I mean actual proof, not an article by someone saying that it does occur without saying how or citing a law). Just because one side (the shorts) has more $$$ or fortitude or whatever, does not mean they are manipulating per se. The are just winning the battle (for now it seems).

To reiterate, the other argument that bugs me is the whole silver is scarce argument. Again, if that were true right this moment, there would be no physical around, especially when the price dips. I do believe silver WILL someday be scarce and even more in demand than now (both industrial wise and for investment purposes). In my opinion we are not there yet. But that doesn't mean we won't be there in the future, maybe sooner than later.

I am just going to keep accumulating as I can afford, especially if the price dips a bit more.

Jim
 

JD-GA

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Feb 2, 2010
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Jim wrote--"But it is easy to understand all that has to be done to END so called "manipulation" is to buy physical. But unfortunately the problem is that when the price gets near 50 there is a lack of buyers, both small and big investors.

How many here who think silver "should be" 150 per ounce were running out and buying when it was 50? Even better, how many of those who think it "should be" 150 are buying today at a mere 37 or so? "

Trust me there was no lack of buyers at $49. I had 4 customers order over 200 eagles and 300oz of random bullion from me the day it hit the high of $49.88 and they were paying 5% to 10% premiums to order and happy to do it. The fact is behind the scenes comex was changing the rules to suit themselves and their positions without anyone but wallstreet traders knowing about it. Its the biggest scam there is but legal somehow. Its insider trading to the foulest degree but legal somehow. Imagine playing basketball where everytime you get a lead and make a basket the ref changes the amount of points a scored basket counts for only one team. That is a superb anaology.

Yet again it hasnt worked. The last 2 trading days we have seen nearly a $5 increase in silver literally moments after the last rule change was announced. Today may 9th is when those new margins went into effect and STILL silver rose $2.

Now I agree with you that $50 mark is like poking your head over a log to see if anyone is shooting at you. It makes people nervous but once it goes over $50 dont expect it to pull back when everyone sees the green pasteur on the other side.
 

jim4silver

Silver Member
Apr 15, 2008
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

JD-GA said:
Jim wrote--"But it is easy to understand all that has to be done to END so called "manipulation" is to buy physical. But unfortunately the problem is that when the price gets near 50 there is a lack of buyers, both small and big investors.

How many here who think silver "should be" 150 per ounce were running out and buying when it was 50? Even better, how many of those who think it "should be" 150 are buying today at a mere 37 or so? "

Trust me there was no lack of buyers at $49. I had 4 customers order over 200 eagles and 300oz of random bullion from me the day it hit the high of $49.88 and they were paying 5% to 10% premiums to order and happy to do it. The fact is behind the scenes comex was changing the rules to suit themselves and their positions without anyone but wallstreet traders knowing about it. Its the biggest scam there is but legal somehow. Its insider trading to the foulest degree but legal somehow. Imagine playing basketball where everytime you get a lead and make a basket the ref changes the amount of points a scored basket counts for only one team. That is a superb anaology.

Yet again it hasnt worked. The last 2 trading days we have seen nearly a $5 increase in silver literally moments after the last rule change was announced. Today may 9th is when those new margins went into effect and STILL silver rose $2.

Now I agree with you that $50 mark is like poking your head over a log to see if anyone is shooting at you. It makes people nervous but once it goes over $50 dont expect it to pull back when everyone sees the green pasteur on the other side.

OK JD, what are these "rules" that favor "Comex" as you say? The margin rules apply to both short and long contracts. Can you cite one rule that matches what you claim?

I am not meaning to pick on you, but as a person who likes to know the "truth" about things, it bugs me when I hear claims that are not substantiated, even when those claims are made by people who favor general ideas that I do, such as silver being a great PM to hold for long term financial well being, etc.

Jim
 

ivan salis

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Feb 5, 2007
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

like a poker game --set a low limit at first to get lots of folks "in the game" as the game progresses and then money shifts into just few hands --up the stakes ** to play suddenly - in a short order the "big time" deep pocket highly skilled players will wipe out the "lucky" little guys

a classic form of "pump and dump" --make things go up -- luring in folks into the its going up, up , up ( buy ,buy, buy) "easy money" train ---then when you got enough of em playing -- tank the market --causing a "panic" sell off --- the little guys over levered panic and sell off --with the "big guys" feasting on them as they scramble to sell, sell ,sell.

say a big timer sells a massive amount of silver to little folks buying contracts on the way up at say 47 *--- he cools the market by dumping lots of silver he bought much cheaper price earlier making a huge profiet ****as well as making the market tank to say 36 due to the huge amount hitting the market all at once ( and then buying back what he sold at 47 before at say first up tick 37 now )--while hes doing this he has the "board" demand that they increase the cost of doing bussiness due to "volitility " (which they caused) which fiscally the little guys can not "cover" forcing them to dump /sell the contrats -- now thats a additional tidy lil + $10 per sell / buy --plus he has the metal he started to begin with back .

just do it over and over again --nothing new here folks-- its just rich folks "working the markets" as usual putting the wood to the little guys .
 

JD-GA

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

jim4silver said:
JD-GA said:
Jim wrote--"But it is easy to understand all that has to be done to END so called "manipulation" is to buy physical. But unfortunately the problem is that when the price gets near 50 there is a lack of buyers, both small and big investors.

How many here who think silver "should be" 150 per ounce were running out and buying when it was 50? Even better, how many of those who think it "should be" 150 are buying today at a mere 37 or so? "

Trust me there was no lack of buyers at $49. I had 4 customers order over 200 eagles and 300oz of random bullion from me the day it hit the high of $49.88 and they were paying 5% to 10% premiums to order and happy to do it. The fact is behind the scenes comex was changing the rules to suit themselves and their positions without anyone but wallstreet traders knowing about it. Its the biggest scam there is but legal somehow. Its insider trading to the foulest degree but legal somehow. Imagine playing basketball where everytime you get a lead and make a basket the ref changes the amount of points a scored basket counts for only one team. That is a superb anaology.

Yet again it hasnt worked. The last 2 trading days we have seen nearly a $5 increase in silver literally moments after the last rule change was announced. Today may 9th is when those new margins went into effect and STILL silver rose $2.

Now I agree with you that $50 mark is like poking your head over a log to see if anyone is shooting at you. It makes people nervous but once it goes over $50 dont expect it to pull back when everyone sees the green pasteur on the other side.

OK JD, what are these "rules" that favor "Comex" as you say? The margin rules apply to both short and long contracts. Can you cite one rule that matches what you claim?

I am not meaning to pick on you, but as a person who likes to know the "truth" about things, it bugs me when I hear claims that are not substantiated, even when those claims are made by people who favor general ideas that I do, such as silver being a great PM to hold for long term financial well being, etc.

Jim

Ivan explained it above. I should have clarified that the comex changes the rules but its their friends who receive the benefit like JP morgan. But to explain it to you perfectly what went on ive copied and pasted this for you.

"MARGIN REQUIREMENT

A margin, or performance bond, is collateral that the holder of a position in futures contracts, securities or options has to deposit to cover credit risk. The use of margin greatly amplifies either the gain or loss with a position. The higher the margin requirement the more capital is required to control the same amount of the underlying asset.

One consequence that can result from using margin to purchase assets is a margin call. If the margin posted in the margin account is below the minimum margin requirement then the broker or exchange issues a margin call. The investor has to either increase the margin deposited or close the position and can be accomplished by selling the securities, options or futures if they are long and by buying them back if they are short.

If they do not do any of this the broker can sell his securities to meet the margin call. If the exchange is unsuccessful in executing margin calls and receiving enough capital then the exchange could fail."


So the first time that silver dropped a couple weeks ago it was due to the comex raising the margins. They actually raised the margins 5 TIMES in 3 days even while silver was already going down. They continued to kick silver while it was down hoping to send it so low that their friends who were too heavy into short sells wouldnt get killed on the buy back. The giant firms buying paper silver with no intent to buy physical and short selling contracts only works if they can buy silver cheaper later on from when their customer bought it from them. So the comex changes margins to knock out a lot of little guys (figuratively speaking) who have to start selling positions to stay alive which starts silver or any commodity on a downward slide also known as backwardization. Then when folks see silver crashing a lot of people faint of heart sell their positions out of fear sending it lower.

Anyway that is how it happens. Why it happened is as most people know the comex and federal reserve for that matter are basically owned by big wigs like JP morgan. They call in a favor and get the margins raised when they need the prices to move in their favor. It has been working this way with silver for nearly 3 decades but now the demand for physical silver is making this market manipulation nearly impossible.

The problem with this? Us physical silver buyers ARENT selling and the industries who use silver still need to buy it. The paper traders can play their games but much like oil, when something highly needed across the world comes out of the ground slower than it is used the price goes up. Silvers demand is going to skyrocket as china, and india, and many other nations grow a middle class.

Hope this answered your question thoroughly.
 

trdhrdr007

Bronze Member
Nov 1, 2009
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Here's my problem with a lot of the mass manipulation proponents. The entire premise is that silver has been supressed for over 30 years & "they" will do anything to keep the price below it's natural level. Let's assume I agree with that. How do you reconcile it with the fact that the spot price of silver was relatively unchanged for the first 20 of those years? What possible benefit was there for "them" to spend the time, money, & effort to keep the price the same?
 

JD-GA

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

During those 20 years there wasnt anywhere near todays level of demand for the physical metal that would have sent the prices higher like we see now. Remember if you go back just 15 years very few people were even aware of cell phones and only 10 or 15 percent of american house holds even had a computer (i believe that is the stat i looked up when i got my first computer 1998) both of which use silver. Fast forward 15 years and not only does over 50% of american house holds have computers and an even much higher percentage of people use cell phones but you have world wide demand for those products that didnt exist back when silver stayed stagnant.

Basically to answer your question. There was nothing to manipulate for 20 years. "They" need "other peoples" money to help run the price up in order for them to change margins to bring the prices down to where they can profit from it. The reason for what is happening here in the last 3 years is that the supply is for the first time getting smaller than the demand AND add to that world economies are in fear of defaulting. This means people who dont use silver are buying the metal to hedge against inflation and fiat currencies defaulting taking even more silver out of the market forcing the buy prices even higher. Im not saying these prices are warranted but without question there is nothing stopping them from going up so long as demand is higher than supply and the US and european dollar/euro get weaker.
 

jim4silver

Silver Member
Apr 15, 2008
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

JD-GA said:
During those 20 years there wasnt anywhere near todays level of demand for the physical metal that would have sent the prices higher like we see now. Remember if you go back just 15 years very few people were even aware of cell phones and only 10 or 15 percent of american house holds even had a computer (i believe that is the stat i looked up when i got my first computer 1998) both of which use silver. Fast forward 15 years and not only does over 50% of american house holds have computers and an even much higher percentage of people use cell phones but you have world wide demand for those products that didnt exist back when silver stayed stagnant.

Basically to answer your question. There was nothing to manipulate for 20 years. "They" need "other peoples" money to help run the price up in order for them to change margins to bring the prices down to where they can profit from it. The reason for what is happening here in the last 3 years is that the supply is for the first time getting smaller than the demand AND add to that world economies are in fear of defaulting. This means people who dont use silver are buying the metal to hedge against inflation and fiat currencies defaulting taking even more silver out of the market forcing the buy prices even higher. Im not saying these prices are warranted but without question there is nothing stopping them from going up so long as demand is higher than supply and the US and european dollar/euro get weaker.

While I agree that increasing margin requirements negatively affects smaller traders (real small, compared to any hedge fund or institutional trader) which does have a negative affect on silver price, but it does not change the fact that margin requirements apply to both short and long traders. In other words, there are not rules that adversely affect longs and not shorts simply because one side is betting silver goes up while the other bets silver goes down, other than little traders cannot handle the margin requirements.

Thus, the theory goes that since the shorts have more $$$$$$ that they have to buy futures contracts (shorts) there is manipulation. As I said before, nothing is stopping cash-rich hedge funds from buying in and going long. The increase in margins would not affect them a bit. In my opinion it was they (and other financial institutions) who pushed silver to 50 and bailed to take profits.

Individuals who go and buy silver from a coin store make no difference on the price of silver (spot price), there is a slight chance if they cleaned out a store it could affect the price of premiums when that store has to buy wholesale to have more to sell his customers, but that does not affect that spot price which comes from one of the big exchanges, i.e. Comex, LBMA, etc.

Many seem to complain about this "manipulation" like whining babies (I don't mean this towards anyone here, but towards a few of the online pundits) instead of trying to find ways to profit from the current silver price. In my opinion this is a "golden opportunity" to add to the stash and one day it will be gone forever. I hope they "manipulate" the price to 20 so I can really load up. I say THANK YOU alleged manipulators! Am I the only one that gets this?

Jim
 

mts

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

jim4silver said:
...As I said before, nothing is stopping cash-rich hedge funds from buying in and going long. The increase in margins would not affect them a bit. In my opinion it was they (and other financial institutions) who pushed silver to 50 and bailed to take profits...

I totally agree. Although it was fun to watch the price of silver skyrocket for two weeks, this unprecedented price increase was not due to demand. I agree with you that it was likely price manipulation by the cash-rich hedge funds.

But people never complain about price manipulation when the price is going up. It is only deemed to be price manipulation when the price has been held down. ???
 

Silver Surfer

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

mts said:
...As I said before, nothing is stopping cash-rich hedge funds from buying in and going long. The increase in margins would not affect them a bit. In my opinion it was they (and other financial institutions) who pushed silver to 50 and bailed to take profits...
Although I understand it on a very basic level, I wish someone would post such a "explanitory" post about this "short" and "long" crap... I understand it to be "paper" PM ownership, and that it is a form of speculation, but aside from that, am lost... I DO know though, that manipulation of markets IS illegal. The problem comes in proving that the manipulation took place..
I have to disagree with you about the price silver rose to, and why... I believe that there are a large number of people in this country who see through the fog of Washington, and the inevitable collapse of the dollar, and bought PM's just for that reason... Silver was affordable to most, whereas gold and platinum were not.. Heck, thats why I bought into silver.. So the demand in the short term (and projected supply) were found to be opposite, thus prices shot up.. The dollar is still going down, and nothing has been fixed that will prevent our economic collapse, so silver should NOT have plummeted like it did. If it had dropped due to what so many are saying (bubble, etc.), then it would still be dropping, not hanging in the mid to upper 30's.... Of course, this is only my opinion, but that is all I have to base my current and future PM holdings on...
Great post btw...
 

jim4silver

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Apr 15, 2008
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Silver Surfer said:
Although I understand it on a very basic level, I wish someone would post such a "explanitory" post about this "short" and "long" crap... I understand it to be "paper" PM ownership, and that it is a form of speculation, but aside from that, am lost..

In a futures contract, there are always 2 parties, one is long and one is short. The person who is long is said to be the buyer of the contract, he makes money if the price of the commodity goes up. The person who is short is said to be the seller of the contract, he makes money if the price falls. There always has to be a buyer and a seller on any futures contract. If there are more people wanting to sell than buy, then naturally the price goes down, if there are more people wanting to buy than sell a particular commodity contract, then the price will be pushed up.

Each day the accounts are settled in a comex contract. So if you are long and the price rose that day,
the appropriate amount of cash is put into your account, and the short has the same amount of money taken out of his account. If the price goes down the short's account is credited and the long's is debited.

This is why there are margin requirements (money you have to put up to buy or sell a contract). When the volatility rises or the price of a commodity rises, the margin requirement can be raised to make sure nobody defaults. There used to be daily limits where if silver went too far up or down the trading was halted (called limit up or limit down). Today there are no such limits and the price could theoretically go to zero or 1000 in one day. Some believe that the margin increases are designed to keep silver down by preventing smaller traders (who theoretically are mostly longs) from being able to participate in the "game". While it may result in fewer longs, I personally believe they need to do this when silver, or any commodity, gets so volatile it is going up or down several percentage points in a day. For every dollar silver goes up or down, that is $5000 you win or lose, depending on if you are long or short in a futures contract.

Silver Surfer said:
I have to disagree with you about the price silver rose to, and why... I believe that there are a large number of people in this country who see through the fog of Washington, and the inevitable collapse of the dollar, and bought PM's just for that reason. If it had dropped due to what so many are saying (bubble, etc.), then it would still be dropping, not hanging in the mid to upper 30's.... Of course, this is only my opinion, but that is all I have to base my current and future PM holdings on...
Great post btw...

I respect your view point, and will try to answer some of your questions. I believe though that you give too much credit to the masses by thinking they are buying PMs to protect themselves. Yes you and I and probably most people on this site are doing that, but not average joes in America.

The price you see quoted daily is based on various "exchanges", such as the comex, the LBMA, etc. These prices set the price you pay for physical (for now at least), plus the relative supply at your coin store will affect the premium you pay on top of the spot price. Thus, the great rise in prices was due to heavy speculating in the futures markets, and the fall was due to sales in the futures markets.

I feel one day demand for physical will get so great there will be a split of physical prices from paper (futures). But for now we are not near that. And silver is still continuing to fall and probably will get into the 20s before it starts going up again in my opinion. Remember there are speculators who are getting back in at any given level because they believe silver will go back up.

The hedge funds and institutional traders play the futures contracts with tons of cash. One single futures contract controls 5000 ounces of silver. In April this year, there were about 144,000 silver contracts open at any given time on average. That is 720 million ounces of silver being played on paper. This brings up the whole issue that if everyone with a futures contract demanded delivery, they would not be able to deliver all the silver. In reality almost all paper contracts settle via cash. Lately more are demanding delivery from what I have read.

I think it is good for now that the price is coming down and the average joe does not know about silver. Because when they do find out and the dollar further goes down silver will go up and be harder to find at reasonable premiums in my opinion.

Jim
 

hombre_de_plata_flaco

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

I couldn't even sell 4 oz. of sterling at a pawn shop today.
 

Silver Surfer

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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Hey Jim, thanks for the GREAT reply... That's just about what I had figured in my head... But one thing to clarify if you can. My son-in-law's father is a pretty big trader in Washington and also a financial adviser. He told me a while back that futures traders, not only in oil, but pretty much every commodity, RARELY trade with anything more than "promissory notes", i.e., no cash involved, and rarely the cash to back up their promise... He said "in the old days", you had to have the cash in hand, or other "money" such as PM's, to get "Credit" to deal in futures... He then went on to say that the volume of trades became so great, very few people had that much "cash" to make the deals. Then the FTC laws were "tweaked" so that those "in the game" were simply approved based on their "credit" and history of honest dealings... He now says it has gotten so abused and corrupt, that people are making millions without having to risk "capital" such as you or I do (we need to have collateral worth the value of what we are borrowing), and that is why they can be so reckless and also why the markets are so easily manipulated compared to days of old..
What is your take on that? I only have his words, but have watched a few news specials that also said that big traders are like big gamblers in Vegas... They can simply walk in, the "house" gives them a huge "credit", and then if they lose, hopefully they will come up with the cash they owe... But bottom line, if you or I walk into that brokerage OR Casino, we have to have $10k in hand if we want to gamble with $10k.... No house credits for us..

Speculation, in my opinion, would be more stable and manipulated much less, if EVERYONE involved had to have actual cash put on hold, or better yet, transferred to the sellers bank account, at the time of sale... Then futures traders would be a lot more careful, and stability would be better since REAL money is at stake, and not simply a number on a computer screen... It would also possibly get a lot of the "Bot" trading out of the picture, as the risk of losing your entire fortune due to an overzealous program would be less.... Thoughts?
 

jim4silver

Silver Member
Apr 15, 2008
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Re: Silver Manipulation? You don't say! How low exactly can it go?

Silver Surfer said:
Hey Jim, thanks for the GREAT reply... That's just about what I had figured in my head... But one thing to clarify if you can. My son-in-law's father is a pretty big trader in Washington and also a financial adviser. He told me a while back that futures traders, not only in oil, but pretty much every commodity, RARELY trade with anything more than "promissory notes", i.e., no cash involved, and rarely the cash to back up their promise... He said "in the old days", you had to have the cash in hand, or other "money" such as PM's, to get "Credit" to deal in futures... He then went on to say that the volume of trades became so great, very few people had that much "cash" to make the deals. Then the FTC laws were "tweaked" so that those "in the game" were simply approved based on their "credit" and history of honest dealings... He now says it has gotten so abused and corrupt, that people are making millions without having to risk "capital" such as you or I do (we need to have collateral worth the value of what we are borrowing), and that is why they can be so reckless and also why the markets are so easily manipulated compared to days of old..
What is your take on that? I only have his words, but have watched a few news specials that also said that big traders are like big gamblers in Vegas... They can simply walk in, the "house" gives them a huge "credit", and then if they lose, hopefully they will come up with the cash they owe... But bottom line, if you or I walk into that brokerage OR Casino, we have to have $10k in hand if we want to gamble with $10k.... No house credits for us..

Speculation, in my opinion, would be more stable and manipulated much less, if EVERYONE involved had to have actual cash put on hold, or better yet, transferred to the sellers bank account, at the time of sale... Then futures traders would be a lot more careful, and stability would be better since REAL money is at stake, and not simply a number on a computer screen... It would also possibly get a lot of the "Bot" trading out of the picture, as the risk of losing your entire fortune due to an overzealous program would be less.... Thoughts?


I don't know how it works with the "credit" issue. All I know for sure is that each contract is "balanced out" (my terms) at the end of each day's trading, so that if your position gained money, cash is put into your account and if your position lost money, cash is removed. When I say cash I mean digital digits like when you write a check and the bank removes money from your account. Your margin account in a commodity contract has money added and removed each day. If someone was playing on "credit", someone or some institution would have to be putting up money that is paid out if their position lost on any particular day.

But I don't know for sure how all that works.

Jim
 

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