Law vs. morality issue...

[jaycee c]

I know that metal detecting is not allowed in most historical areas and getting permission from private property owners gets tiring, especially when they generally come with comments along the lines of "I've got something you can detect". I know some places are illegal to detect/dig in, but is it really immoral if it's done for the historical factor and not to sell or for profit? I don't believe historical artifacts or relics should be left buried to rot away. They should be out in a museum or on display for teaching purposes. The people digging illegally for profit do bother me, but it's a fine line. I can't be the only one... Am I right?

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Jaycee, for starters, what you are saying about "most historical areas" being off-limits, isn't entirely accurate (depending on what you mean by "historical areas"). A lot of us hunt historical areas, if you want to include old parks, campgrounds, beaches, and so forth. But if you mean Shiloh, Ghettysburg, and other such obvious sensitive historic monuments, then no, they are are not open to detecting. But on the other hand, it's wrong for us to assume that just because a place is historic and old, that it's somehow off-limits. There has to be a specific law saying no detecting, before I consider some place "off limits".

So if by historical areas, are you referring to state lands and federal lands, that aren't obvious historic monuments? I mean, just like if you found a random cellar hole out in the woods (and the "woods" happened to be on some form of federal or state land)? So you need to be a little more specific. And bear in mind, that not all state and federal land is "off-limits". Even though this is a common mantra we seem to read from the skittish crowd, yet the truth is, that not federal land is federal "park" land (road right-of-way is an example), and not all state land is state "park" land. And so forth.

But assuming there WERE some sort of specific "no detecting" on some particular type of land (and not just "catch-all" cultural heritage cr*p verbage that's up for debate), then here's my answer:

You're asking this on a forum where some people think you need city's permissions to hunt even sandboxes. So .... what do you THINK the answer is going to be. I mean, it would be like asking "Can I go 56 mph in a 55 mph zone?" The obligatory family safe forum moral answer will, of course, be "absolutely not". I mean NO ONE on a forum like this (even they help themselves to such sites in cases where no one will really care or even be around to care) is going to be able to come on and say "sure, help yourself". They'll get roasted and fried, and immediately get branded as someone who as lower than someone who clubs baby seals.

So the technical answer to your question is: No you can't.

 

[jaycee c]

Thank you for the response and my vague description about "off limits" was slightly intentional. I am not admitting to doing this, but I am referring to sites where it does specifically restrict metal detecting. I am a big fan of history and it takes me to many historical locations. Some don't have any laws/rules established against metal detecting and some do. If there isn't anything I can find saying it is illegal then I will until someone stops me and is able to provide citation that I am not allowed to MD there. I know that many people on here (from the little bit I've read through) don't seem to care for archeologists. I respect what they do though because I just want to preserve history, not profit from it. Say there was a historical area that was a designated archeological area that had some land attached but covered in thick foliage or forest. They know as well as I do that they aren't messing around in that part full of deer ticks and disease carrying Mosquitos, so I don't see the moral reasoning (not the legal reasoning) of not md'ing the area. If the government claims the land and denies people the right to dig up and preserve history, then they should be doing it instead of just leaving if there to be list forever. Basically "$hit or get off the pot". My father is a retired police chief and was in law enforcement since he was 19. He basically said just don't get caught. I guess everyone has a different opinion about it, it just seems a little selfish and childish for the government to take on the attitude of "we may not be doing anything with it but it's ours and you can't play with it". This is government though and I don't expect much more from them. I did find the legal section on here a few minutes ago and I realize now that this should have been posted there. My bad... 8 )

 

[TheRingFinder]

I'm with you Jaycee - Anything lost in the earth or water should be sought after and found. No entity or person has the right to say "You can't search here, but we can" < - Archy's!!!! I have always gone where ever I have wanted, and asked permission from private land owners. I have been questioned by nosey neighbors etc. but never had any real problems. The worst they can do is ask you to move on. All you people who say "TRF is the type of person who ruins it for the rest of us" < - - that's a bunch of BS, they are taking away your rights everyday for no reason. I for one will hunt, and keep hunting to the good lord takes me away.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Question it if you want, but people caught illegally hunting on battle grounds and parks receive heavy fines and prison terms of years not months.

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[TheRingFinder]

Question it if you want, but people caught illegally hunting on battle grounds and parks receive heavy fines and prison terms of years not months.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

TH - Can you shoot me a PM of an actual person who has been imprisoned for Metal Detecting. We all hear these horror stories, though I have never actually heard of anyone. I would love to talk to one of these people.......Thanks!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

TH - Can you shoot me a PM of an actual person who has been imprisoned for Metal Detecting. We all hear these horror stories, though I have never actually heard of anyone. I would love to talk to one of these people.......Thanks!

Here are 3 for you that googled found easily.

http://m.timesdispatch.com/news/for...a65-2014-5337-ba47-71f4bc85f699.html?mode=jqm


http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/illegal_relic.htm


http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-13929.html





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[jaycee c]

I've never heard of anyone being arrested for metal detecting in my area personally. The only one I know of that was arrested was targeting areas known for Native American relics and selling them for profit. After several fines and warnings he did get a 30 day sentence. He was very aware of what he was doing though and had been warned repeatedly. I've been to a battle site of the civil war that had signs up everywhere saying "absolutely no metal detecting allowed". In front of one sign in a large open field was an older man that metal detected undisturbed for several hours. I think it all boils down to personal beliefs and where you are for the moral aspect. I wanted to dig around, not in, a very old cemetery that has been extremely neglected and overgrown. It's right on a larger road, but so old and neglected you wouldn't know it was there if you weren't looking for it. I had a couple of people act like I was going to dig up a protected Indian burial mound instead of the site of an old church next to an old cemetery. No one bothered to ask about all the work we did getting it declared a historical location just to keep a company from digging the area up and turning it into a gas station. It would be next to killing them myself to go metal detect near it according to some people. I do try to metal detect and dig legally, but rules tend to get frustrating after doing it for a while and running out of abandoned lots around you. I have a hard time believing that anyone would be arrested for it if they had never been in any trouble previously and had not been forewarned by an official. Jails are so overcrowded that most people would just slap a fine and possibly confiscate detectors for someone that hasn't gotten in trouble before. My dad never took anyone in for it and kind of chuckled at the idea of it. I really just wanted to get a feel for how other metal detecting people thought because I only have one friend that does it with me when his wife lets him out to play.... And he's the kind that does freak out about a sign or a paper with the rules on it so it can be difficult agreeing on a location he will actually work over. The rest of the time it's just me with him standing around watching and waiting for the next place.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

There have been many threads here on detecting in cemataries.... It is frown on by the vast majority of us and it gives us a bad name just like hunting on battlefields that have laws against it.... It gives our hobby a bad name....

My personal opinion, anyone caught hunting in National battlefields deserve what ever fines and jail time they get, it is against the law and they know it...When they are caught it brings bad publicity down on our hobby and makes local authorities want to restrict more areas from us.............

 

[jaycee c]

I wouldn't personally dig in an old cemetery. After all those years of erosion and weather, there would be too big a chance of digging up someone instead of some thing. I don't feel bad about digging where the church used to be though. I'm pretty sure there are laws in place about grave robbing so that would pretty much rule out almost every cemetery there is. I can't imagine what the answer would be if you asked someone digging in a cemetery what they expected to find. The only answer I would be able to think of would be something buried with the person. That's grave robbing. I just can't see that someone would expect to find tons of old coins digging around old graves unless they mean to take the coins from a dead man's eyes? I wouldn't go digging at Gettysburg or any place like that either, but mainly from worry of getting in big trouble, not because I wouldn't want to. I'm from the south and my family as far back as I can trace it has always been around TN and Al. From there it goes back to Ireland and Europe with the exception of the Native American side. I had more family members fight in the civil war than any other war fought across seas or on our soil. I like digging in areas rich with civil war history. I'm the one in the family that gets left old photos in the will instead of jewelry because that's what I value. My history.... Not a piece of gold or silver. I don't like a lot of the places full of unearthed history closing it off so it can rot away and get crushed by people walking over it. I did read the articles about the people arrested and of course, it wasn't their first time around. Deliberate and intentional vandalism like that is wrong, and worse since it was for a profit. I was at Horseshoe Bend NMP last weekend and it looked like prairie dogs had been attacking it. I stopped there while going through the area looking at other sites in the War of 1812 that weren't on NPS land. The presence of the park patrol was a good reminder of the trouble I could get in for digging there, but it did nothing to stop me from REALLY wanting to.

 

[JJohnson]

It all comes down to this where ever you hunt for relics, etc; Someone owns the land in question and therefore owns what is in the ground. Legally or Morally you must have permission to hunt. To expand any further on this subject, in an attempt to skirt your moral or legal obligation is nonsense. Get permission, have fun, rescue that history and then post all your finds along with photos on the forum...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

treasure_hunter, thanx for taking the time to find those instances, and post the links. Whenever a question like ring-finder gets posted (which I too have often asked), I am painfully aware that .... yes .... no doubt .... someone's going to find actual instances of guys getting roughed up for detecting. Heck, maybe even jail, fines, confiscations, and so forth.

However, each time I pose the question that ring-finder asks, I include the following: That any such instance that someone can find, of "arrests", "confiscations", "Jail", and so forth, would no doubt be: a) someone night-sneaking obvious historic monuments, or b) someone who can't take a warning. Look at each of your links, and you will see either or both of those aspects clearly there.

And let me clarify something: I suppose it's *possible* to even find a link/story of someone getting roughed up for truly not knowing (ignorance) with no warning, and immediate consequences. And to have that happen at innocuous forest or beach somewhere, that is NOT an "obvious historic monument". Yes, even an example like that might be found, if you looked long enough. However, SO TOO can I probably find an example of a motorist who got roughed up by an over-zealous cop (& jailed, fined, confiscated, etc...) for nothing but a tail-light out. There will ALWAYS be extreme examples of prosecutions. If we all guage our lives by "what if's" and "worst case scenarios", there will come a time when you won't even leave your front door in the morning! Afterall: your neighbor might get mad. Or a lion might attack you, etc....

I'm not sure if the OP meant to include such "obviouis historic monuments" as the people in your links (and silly things like "doing it for 4 years straight while running from rangers multiple times!") But based on examples of a "church yard next to a cemetary", then no, I too don't see any moral harm in that. But I guess it would depend on what church, and if that were an "obvious historic monument" (I mean, I suppose such a setting could be at Manassas and/or Gettysburg, and thus be a church that ... perhaps ... you don't want to be hunting at.

So it's on a case by case basis. But no, I will not interpret vague cultural heritage things to be interpretted to say "no metal detectors". I do not see any harm in hiking out 5 miles into the desert to hunt a stage stop, adobe site, watering hole, etc.... that we researched out.

 

[jaycee c]

The church has been gone for over 70 years as best I can tell. The only thing left are pieces of wood from the foundation part and some large stones, but those are even covered up. I came from the last generation that still went exploring all the woods in my area instead of playing video games and face booking all day. A developer was trying to come in and dig up the graves that were there and relocate them so they could build a gas station. We've all seen Poltergeist and know how that would have ended up.We managed to get the city to protect it by declaring the cemetery a historical area because the founders of the city are buried there. Only a hand full of people even know it exists. There was a lot if research and documentation involved to get them to save the cemetery. After all that I wouldn't go in and go grave robbing. If I'm somewhere I'm not supposed to be metal detecting and someone lets me know I shouldn't be doing it, then one warning is all I need. I try to check on the regulations before I go somewhere, but sometimes when you're out there you stumble across something that you really thought was legal. It's illegal to take any rocks or pick a flower at a state park. I just can't see a park ranger fining or talking a small child to juvenile for picking up some pretty rocks. Legally it is the same criminal charge more or less. The people in the articles linked in the response knew exactly what they were doing and deserved what they got. People are funny about the laws they decide to abide by and the ones they think are silly. Everyone interprets what is right and wrong differently depending on their moral standards. I personally don't have a problem with people digging up history for preservation or educational purposes. I do have a problem with the tour from the articles that intentionally ruin battle sites for profit. That's just my opinion though so it isn't right or wrong, it's just my personal take on it. I'm trying to get my words out right, but I'm still trying to come back from EEE and it's hard getting my words out right still. Bottom line, I think everyone wants to dig good locations and it comes down to 3 types: 1) the one that doesn't care about anything other than profit and will do anything and dig anywhere regardless of the law and moral reasons. 2) The type that will dig places as long as they know they won't get in trouble and will dig other places if they don't have to worry as much about getting caught. 3) The kind that follows the law regardless and wouldn't dig because you aren't supposed to, not because they are worried about getting busted.
Down south it just isn't that easy to find good spots to dig. I've come across more copperheads than I have anything of monetary or historical value. I've been bitten by killer Mosquitos all in an attempt to stay in legal areas. It's not fun when you're scanning a river bank and a gator grabs your coil. It makes those nice open areas without waist high grass really appealing.I've gotten to the point I won't even try to to go on private property unless I see a woman there as well.

 

[TheRingFinder]

Here are 3 for you that googled found easily.

For battlefield thefts, man gets 366-day term - News, crime & politics for Richmond metro area - TimesDispatch.com


Illegal Relic Hunter Is Sentenced


Third caught relic hunter gets 2 years [Archive] - Authentic Campaigner Website & Forums





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Thanks TH - I knew I could count on you to deliver!! Unlike the Lib's that post rants of untruths and can never back them up.
I do not agree with the laws, and if they get caught, i guess they pay the price.

 

[Davers]

IMO Do what you gotta do , by saying that I don't mean go and hunt Battlefields and like . There are many run down homes, patches of woods where people dump everything from trash to bodies , my point is there are places we should be able to md but as the law [here in Ga & other states ] says written permission must be had . & As to the police there are Many cops who will see you in such an area and check you out & if your not Dumping , using drugs and are not wanted will just say good luck or since you do not have written approval maybe you should leave ,THEN you have the other type of cop [ who has something to prove] and will charge you with everything he/she can think of and waste every ones time from yours all the way to the courts over something small. Just know i'm talking about old overgrown lots & patches of woods NOT Nat, parks . I usually hate when I have an encounter with a ROOKIE cop , it's the vets with time under their belts IMO that know witch people are the real problems & when it's best to spend the tax payers money.......Dang it Davers...

 

[amos316]

well here is what i think of it from a redneck point of view cemetery a nono for me for moral reasons the outskirts usually have older unmarked graves churches are fair game now as far as the historical if its private land i also get permission if i dont have it i dont detect it but if its owned by city county or state i consider it my tax money hard at work and its fair game to me 15 metal detectorists who cover holes will do a lot less damage than a group of hunters on horses and atv's shooting everything i asked the county here for permission one time for a place out in the middle of nowhere nothing but trees that used to be a civil war campsite due to insurance reasons we cant let you sorry you know what happened a month latter yep a shiny new gas station so now i just do it historical and protected only applies to the common folk it aparently doesnt apply to developers when im dead and gone id rather another detectorist find my items at least they will show them to people and share the history if the state or county gets them they go in a box in a room and our history is nothing more than a private collection for the goverment or the stuff can sit in the ground till it rots while "they" dont want to do nothing with it and dont want anyone else to either

 

[mark1427]

Check to see if the State,County or City has a "recreational use statute" which releases land owners from liability as long as they don't receive any compensation for allowing recreational use of their land. Be sure to get a copy of the statue for your reference.