updates on russian detecting law?

[Tom_in_CA]

Post script: On that last ebay listing, I see that the seller says "shipping to any country". Hmmm. Ok, will send him an inquiry now, and see what he says about your interpretation of the "imminent threat".

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Here is the Text of the message I have sent. I'll report back what he replies:


Question: I'm starting a collection for vintage Russian coins. I see that you'll ship out of country. But someone else I'm talking to, says that recent Russian legislation (within the last couple of years?) has outlawed the sale/trafficking of artifacts, antiquities, etc... You know, cultural heritage bologna. And that supposedly Russians can't even sell to each other. Much less out-of-the-country.

Do you know if this is just for excavating/digging them? Or does this also apply to hobbyist buy/sell ? If so, how can Russian sellers, like yourself, sell/ship to out of country ? I am debating this fellow on the laws, and he says it's all now illegal for Russians to sell old coins. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[SuchMuch]

Ok, here is a brief sampling of sales of old Russian coins, originating from within Russia: This is just a sampling I gathered from scrolling down the page of vintage ebay Russian coins, and eye-balling country of seller. I stopped collecting examples after just a few minutes. Hence I've only scratched the surface, and I'm sure there's more.

So you're telling me that these ebay sellers are blatantly violating the law there ? That not only can I not bid/buy these (because they can't ship it out of the country), but NOR TOO can a Russian buy them ?

Then what's up ? CERTAINLY it would not be hard for Russian officials to "crack down" on these scofflaws, find out their identity (by posing as a buyer) and BAM, bust them, eh ? How can they post such "for sale" items, in-lieu of what they're saying ?

I think I will go there now to one of these, and pose a question to the "ask the seller a question" tab. And ask "Can you ship this to the USA ? Are there any legal prohibitions ?" Just to play the devil's advocate. And I will let you know what they say.

Coin 1 Rouble 1853 s P B The Russian Empire Emperor Nicholas 1 | eBay

Russian Emress Maria Alexandrovna Siver Coin One Rouble Mint Condition | eBay

Silver Coin 1 Rouble 1896 s s B Nicholas II The Russian Empire | eBay

These are not coins. These are modern fakes with no doubts.

 

[SuchMuch]

When going through customs you will need to declare any artwork or antiques (including old books) you have purchased. Generally anything made prior to World War II (before 1941) is considered an antique and will need special permission in order to be taken out of the country. Travelers should obtain receipts for all high-value items (including caviar) purchased in Russia. Any article that could appear old or as having cultural value to the customs service, including artwork, icons, samovars, rugs, military medals and antiques, must have a certificate indicating that it has no historical or cultural value. It is illegal to remove such items from Russia without this certificate.

Check this warning issued by an airline.

By the way, It's strightly not recommended to buy RU coins on ebay since most of them are just fakes.

 

[sprailroad]

I would go with SuchMuch, the fella who lives there, and has to deal with it. Say" SuchMuch", wants to come to the U.S in order to find Civil War items at Gettysburg, I would advise him against it, since OUR government would not be fond of that idea. "SuchMuch" may say he sees such items on Ebay etc. all the time, so there should be no problem. It's not the SAME thing, I know, but each government rules, reg's etc. are different. You don't see many metal detecting trips in Russia or other country's as you do say in England, (Which probably have some of the best rule's and reg's for metal detecting on the planet). And yet, there are detecting guys in Russia even in spite of "Government" rules, just as all of us detect here, in spite of OUR government rules, etc. Would you want to be the one to "Test" the Russian customs?

 

[SuchMuch]

"SuchMuch" may say he sees such items on Ebay etc.?

Let me tell one story. Russia is flooded with frauds: immigrants/gypsies/drunkers and other antisocial elements offer passersby to buy old silver coins they recently found in garden/hidden place they found whilst doing repairs etc . They will tell you they need money urgently to buy vodka that's why they sell them cheap, however the real coins price is much higher. Greedy persons buy coins in order to sell them at higher rates. Sure it a junk and they will never sell them.
Check this link, use google translator. By fact all these coins even silver made off are just modern replicas.

You can buy high quality modern replicas, for instance, here and you'll find no differences between original stuff and modern replicas. More over, I wouldn't see the difference since I'm not an expert in coins

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Well then I'll tell you what:

As we can all admit, there's scores of detecting going on in Russia right now. And we all know they (gasp) find old coins amongst their hunts. And if I were ever to travel there, I would simply be "bringing my fake coins" out of the country. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to have someone (a numismatist) write up a dossier of their being "fake" and "of no historical significance".

I had this conversation with someone from one of the European countries (France or Spain, I forget which one), who had been the winning bidder of a metal detector I'd posted for sale. During the transaction to prepare to ship it, .... my curiosity got the better of me. I linked him to "scary dire wording" about cultural heritage, blah blah for his country. And said "I thought that was one of the off-limits Europe countries? So how do you intend to use it ?"

To which he emailed back and said that such verbiage was only ever meant for public lands and "registered protected sites". But even so he said that ... quite frankly .... he and his buddies were "so far back in the woods there was no one to care".

Not saying to "throw caution to the wind", but just saying that in ANY country of the world you go to, you will find dire sounding things. Yes, I'm sure some are more enforced and more dire than others. But it just strikes me as odd, that with this "imminent threat" for Russia, that there's no shortage of md'rs there in Russia (gasp) finding old coins.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ha, well the seller of one of the Russian coins got back to me. Here's his answer:

" Hello. Coins genuine. Yes, there is such a ban. But still all sell. Just sent as a souvenir "

So as you can see, he's denying the coins are replica/fakes. And he acknowledges the ban that you guys speak of (I concede then). But then gives a slightly confusing conclusion. He says that selling is still common-place, as you can see. And then says they just "send as souvenir". Not sure whether he means that LEGALIZES it (to simply label it "souvenir"), or whether it's a statement of "no one cares" (like spitting on sidewalk kind of laws). So I PM'd him back with the following reply:

" ok, so you're saying the coin in genuine, and not a replica/fake. And you're saying that there is a law forbidding /banning sales of old coins there. But are you saying that if the coins (genuine) are labeled as "souvenirs" , that it is then no longer to send/sell ?

So what's the difference ? The law is now fulfilled, so long as the sender labels it a "souvenir" ? "

Yes yes, I realize he could be lying through his teeth, and they might be fake. But let's be dreadfully honest: Old coins in Russia are a "dime a dozen". And world coin books give little value (relatively speaking) to the common ones. And I'm sure that many many collections exist (passed down through family generations, or whatever). So I'm not sure why someone is going to go to the trouble of "counterfeiting" a coin that will sell for only $50 or whatever. I mean, seems "cheaper" just to sell the real thing !

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Here is the seller reply to my last inquiry:

"Yes I will send you a genuine coin only on the envelope will be written the souvenir."


So as you can see, he maintains it's genuine. But he is not making clear whether writing "souvenir" on it makes it legal. Versus if it's a "wink wink" no one cares type message.

So what would stop a USA hunter, who goes to Russia (or simply any Russian hunter) from meeting a seller like this (who seems more than happy to ship "genuine coins") and saying to the dude: Hey, do me a favor: "sell" me these coins. And by all means, write "souvenir" on them, etc.... If someone is hot & bothered by that, wouldn't it be the sender who's in trouble, and not the recipient ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Also, if this shipping is illegal, why hasn't ebay stepped in to stop this ?

I realize Ebay can't "police" fake replica's vs real coins. Because they'd have to ENDLESSLY inspect each one. Simply impossible to do. So I realize it's a "buyer-beware" situation (where you can insist on getting a coin "slabbed", I suppose, to guarantee authenticity).

But one thing ebay CAN do: Is to enforce known international laws. So if there's a law forbidding this (assuming real coin as stated), then why is Ebay allowing these listings on their site ?

 

[SuchMuch]

Tom,
That's simple He sends souvenirs but not coins. Souvenirs have no cultural value.
These coins are not common and cost real money if they are real

real prices for 1 ruble 1853 . Pay attention to perfect condition of ebay coin


real prices for "Russian Emress Maria Alexandrovna Siver Coin One Rouble Mint Condition"

And other coins from this guy were also produced in China This coins are well known as fakes especially "wedding ruble".

Let me tell you 1 thing: Russia is not Europe, it's not an America, it has different legislation and different practice of implementing legislation. You are trying to extrapolate yr rules or European rules over RU, believe me, it's pointless. Come and test the system.

If I'm asked would I sell a coin in RU? Yes, I would, but I would do it not openly (no ebay, no classifieds). But there are lots of cases when such coins are sold openly and nobody is prosecuted. Yes, it is. But it could be you the very next time you decide to sell openly. As for me, I'm not a risky guy. Would I send real coins via post abroad or take them with me to cross RU border? No. I'm not a risky guy.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... If I'm asked would I sell a coin in RU? Yes, I would, but I would do it not openly (no ebay, no classifieds). But there are lots of cases when such coins are sold openly and nobody is prosecuted...

Fair enough answer SuchMuch. Thanx for taking the time to dialogue.

... ... As for me, I'm not a risky guy.....

Ok, then the coins you've bought and sold are not "risky" then, I take it. Eh ?

Then ok, how about this scenario: If you are a coin collector who "buys" (as it appears you know buy/sell/hobbyists there), then what's to stop someone (like yourself or me) from "selling" to these people (which you say is not "risky"). Then the seller has normal modern money. And he crosses a border with normal money, which isn't illegal, nor raises any concerns.

 

[SuchMuch]

Fair enough answer SuchMuch. Thanx for taking the time to dialogue.
Ok, then the coins you've bought and sold are not "risky" then, I take it. Eh ?

I have never bought or sold coins/relics/ancient stuff. I get them by digging'em

Then ok, how about this scenario: If you are a coin collector who "buys" (as it appears you know buy/sell/hobbyists there), then what's to stop someone (like yourself or me) from "selling" to these people (which you say is not "risky"). Then the seller has normal modern money. And he crosses a border with normal money, which isn't illegal, nor raises any concerns.

The goal of RU legislation is to prevent cultural values leaving and entering RU territory. And there is no matter if you are a seller/buyer/collector/whatever. Person who moves cultural values over RU border is subject to be prosecuted.

The another law act that was implemented few months ago forbids to sell ancient stuff openly. However it's a huge market and it's still operational. There could be traps arranged by police for sellers. This I would afraid mostly.

 

[SeabeeRon]

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