1715 fleet pop quiz

[wreckdiver1715]

I agree 100% with those numbers as long as we are not including the Griffon.
Ivan, I hope that you are feeling better today!

 

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[Chagy]

Wreckdiver1715

Out of all the 5 options you mentioned I would eliminate the Olandesa as an option, why? Well is well documented that Echeverz wrote letters from the “Real” of the Olandesa so that would place the Olandesa close to Echeverz Capitana and Almiranta. I would also eliminate the Galante, why? The one survivor from the Galante made ie pretty fast to Salmon’s “Real” keep in mind the survivor was send to St. Augustine on the first vessel that arrived to the disaster area. But it could still be a possibility.
El Ciervo I really have no idea where the heck it is. But there are two sites that may be El Ciervo, the Wedge Wreck which we all know its not the Urca or HRD’s site. If I had to put my money on it, I would bet on The Concepcion or Sr. San Miguel....

But as always that is just my humble opinion.....

 

[Trez]

11 huh?...........anyone know of any other vessels joining the original Flotilla?
11+ = another mystery. (Can't wait for that book to come out)

I am sure in the future...someone will rewrite the History of the 1715 Fleet and turn it on it's ear.

Trez

 

[ivan salis]

my personal view is that the 3 frigate vessels that split and left out on a more northly track (as ynda the pilot major of the fleet stated they did * along with the french nao (the griffon) which made it back to france ), the 3 frigates of echeverz would logically be farther north than those vessels that stayed with the main fleet ---thus the vessels found north are much more likely to be 1 of the 3 more northerly bound vessels .

salmon basically didn't give a flip about the griffon --she "offically" was not part of the fleet but basically forced to sail with them --that or sit 2 weeks in port after the fleet sailed (to prevent leaking of fleet information to pirates)--since salmon was not "accountible " for her, he did not count her in the " spanish fleet accounting of 9 wrecked -2 missing" --- if folks want to count her there was a total of 12 vessels in the fleet total.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Chagy, you are absolutely correct, my bad concerning the La Olandesa aka San Miguel. I just simply listed all five missing ships. However, I do think that the Survivor of the Maria Galante could have made the walk down the beach to the survivor camp in a couple of days from the Melbourne Beach wreck. So, in my humble opinion, the Melbourne Beach wreck could still be the Maria Galante, El Senor San Miguel, or the El Cievro aka La Galleria, or for that matter it could very well turn out to be none of them at all. We wont know for sure until Rex and his boys all settle there little dispute, and start recovering evidence to prove as definitively as possible the origins of there find. Time will tell.

 

[SebastianSam]

Trez wrote: 11 huh?...........anyone know of any other vessels joining the original Flotilla?
11+ = another mystery. (Can't wait for that book to come out)
I am sure in the future...someone will rewrite the History of the 1715 Fleet and turn it on it's ear.
Trez

*sigh* another 'conspiracy theory' and absolutely no documentation.....the second gunman on the grassy knoll, the 12th (secret) ship in the fleet....all that talks makes me crabby.

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Sam, the 12th player on the field was the Griffon. weather she sank or not during the storm, well we may never know, and frankly I don't care. But there is plenty of documentation to the fact that she did sail with the fleet.

 

[SebastianSam]

Tom, my comment to Trez was alluding to those who mistakenly believe there was one or more additional "secret" ships that sailed with the 1715 fleet. There are several people who subscribe to this theory, but in all my years of archival research, I have never found any documentation to prove this.

I have heard about a book coming out that addresses this (as apparently Trez has) . I assume it will be a work of fiction.

As to the Grifon, it did absolutely make it back to France, the port city of Brest I believe. Historian and amatuer archaeologist John deBry, a Frenchman himself, did quite a bit of research on this ship for Historical Research & Development back in the early 1990's.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Do you guys think this info is correct?More than 1,000 people died in the storm, including Ubilla. About 1500 people survived and made it to shore by swimming or floating on pieces of wreckage. Upon reaching land, however, many died from exposure, thirst, and hunger. Further complicating matters, wreckage and people were scattered for almost 30 miles along the uninhabited coast. Fortunately, the Urca de Lima had grounded in shallow water and remained somewhat intact. Supplies and food were recovered from her hold and helped sustain many survivors.

A few launches (small boats carried onboard the warships) survived the disaster, and survivors managed to send one to Havana for aid. One month later, relief boats from Havana and St. Augustine, Florida, arrived with supplies and salvage equipment to recover sunken chests of coins and goods. The Urca de Lima was the first of the wrecked ships to be salvaged by the Spanish. All the cargo that could be recovered was removed from the hull, and the wreck was burned to the waterline to hide it from English pirates.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

How close was all this to st. augustine? And didnt they know where they were at , alot seems wrong about the info to me..Starve in florida,tons of wildlife and sealife,no fresh water to drink .Go back to havana for help when st. augustine was so close.It does say they got help from st. augustine,but 1 month later..Im going to look for some more clues and try and help chagy find the loot I forgot death from exposure ,in july 31st weather?

 

[Darren in NC]

Go back to havana for help when st. augustine was so close.It does say they got help from st. augustine...

St. Augustine had very limited resources as she just got hit from the storm, too. And without the normal protection of an armed fleet, Havana was still their best bet - not to save lives, but to salvage the treasure, which was more important to the crown.

I concur with mad4wrecks about the Urca being close to St. Lucie's inlet. It's fairly obvious in the documentation.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

They already had 1500 people on site..Seems like more then enough to pick up the pieces after the storm..

 

[Darren in NC]

I can see your point, but these were bedraggled survivors, not salvagers. Even so, Salmon was already setting up camp and salvaging what they could. The 1500 were more concerned about surviving - digging wells, looking for food, setting up crude shelter, etc. Some did indeed salvage, though. But they had no protection. Salmon knew this. He knew that as soon as word was out, pirates would prey on them immediately. In fact, even after the "professional" salvagers came in, the survivor/salvage camp was robbed many times.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

After a few days im sure the guys from the shipwreck were back in good health..What would make someone a better salvager then another in 1715?I would think they could all swim and hold their breath the same amount of time...You make it sound like the guys were not strong,and i would think they would have the toughest men around at the time to take on this treasure voyage...Fightting pirates and all that

 

[mad4wrecks]

You ask alot of good questions Relicdude. (And we could spend all day answering them.) As to your question about why didn't more help arrive from St Augustine than Havana, Darren answered part of your question. However, in Havana, they had salvage masters and ships and plenty of victuals and trained divers and equipment that the poor fort at St Augustine did not have. Havana was much better protected as well. However, the biggest reason was POLITICS. There were powerful people who wanted the recovered treasure in Havana. You will have to research this further to understand why.

If you are truly serious about studying the 1715 fleet, I might suggest you begin the way most of us did...start reading all the books that are available (there are many), use good ole Google to find online resources, and maybe look into the translated archival documents that are publicly available.

Be careful though, once you get "bitten", it tends to be quite consuming!

Tom Gidus

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I was just trying to help chagy a bit.With his question.Why do you think they have not been found if the site has been surveyed and searched for the last 45 years by everyone known in the industry from Mel Fisher him self to Mo Molinar, Marx, Weller, Art Heartman, Tommy Gore, Terry Armstrong, Greg Bounds, John Brandon, Tom Gidus, ARRG and I’m sure I left out over 20 names... Sometimes you can read into things to much and not see the true picture ,they were just normal people like us ,and what would you do yourself if you were in their shoes in 1715.....I will give you guys a break. Keep up the good work.Its out of my hunt zone.

 

[ivan salis]

church folks and others in st augustine had "sticky" fingers so to speak thus the govenor of cuba wanted the treasure either sent straight to spain or returned to cuba ---not taken to st augustine --- survivors who looted treasure and headed to st augustine try to steal away with it on the sly were caught , and condemmed to death --the church held since "no one could "prove" who's gold / silver it was upon the theives --that it should be given to the church * --the crown however said --it was "theirs"--- so from the get go the crown did not want treasure being hauled to st augustine --- also havana was the big time vs small time st augustine --- the pro salvors used special "pearl diving" indains -- who were highly skilled at staying under water for a long time --- one must remember most folks in the 1715 era could not swim and were deadly afraid of being in the ocean .

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Where do you get this info ivan People could swim where did the treasure go for 4 years?

 

[rgecy]

Its a huge area and the technology has gotten better over the last 15-20 years. Not all of the areas have been surveyed. Yes, there has been a lot surveyed, but there are also so many targets to go check out, it is very costly and time consuming. Just think of how many square miles these wrecks encompass and how long it would take to do a truly complete survey and dive all the targets.

As for the wrecks that haven't been found, there were many cannon recovered from sites in the early days and they failed to mark these locations. With the cannon removed, the magnetic signature is now very small and may be easily missed. Not to mention how deep the sand is above Sebastian Inlet and can hide an entire wreck with no visible signs above the bottom contour. I know we blew some holes that were 10-15' deep and didn't even hit bottom.

I am for the deep water theory. I think that Greg Bounds proved this year that there is more out there in the deeper waters. We performed a mag survey on one site that had targets leading out from the scatter trail which indicated it was breaking up already in the 30-35' range. There is a lot left out there to be found.

I think there will be some interesting finds this year!

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

some folks could swim of course --however many could not ,and yes they salvaged treasure quite true -- but thats why "specialist" were brought in and used ---swimming was not nearly as common as it is today --the indain's swam like crazy of course (oyster's were a main staple food itemfor the indains )--the spanish did not swim nearly as much.--thus the use of "specialist" pearl diver indians" and recovery boats with diving bells .