Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[elle]

I do have another bell story if anyone is interested. It was found in the water and in a state we are all familiar with...Florida.

In 1927 the Florida Historical Society wrote an article on an old bell...a bell of Spanish origin. In that year, supposedly a museum located in Jacksonville displayed this mission bell that was one of the very few existing relics left of the Florida missions.

The bell was found near Madison, Florida, within a territory lying east of the Apalachicola River and west of the Suwannee...placing it in the Apalache country. This area was inhabited by a tribe of Indians of that name as early as 1612.

The Spanish church led to the establishment of numerous Catholic missions, and by 1635, Florida was pretty thoroughly christianized. The decline of the missions came in the 1700's when Governor Moore of Carolina captured 1,400 native Indians to be sold into slavery at Savannah. More reduction happened when the British took over Florida in 1763.

But how the bell was found is quite interesting. A man by the name of Bell (no pun intended)...was fishing in a pond in the year 1840. While Bell was wading, he stumbled over it. The clapper of the bell was dug out of a mound not far from where the bell was found in the water!

I wanted to give this description of the bell in order to compare details again with the bell from the Dominican Republic.
This bell found in Florida was cast of an alloy of tin, copper, and silver. It was eighteen inches in height, measured four feet around the base and beared the inscription SANTA MARIA ORA PROBONIS, with the date ANO 1758. It exhibited a raised cross composed of twenty-four eight-pointed stars.

If a mission bell can be found in a pond...I am quite sure Jason's wreck in the Dominican Republic holds many more religious relics. Also...there was no "IHS" on this bell...and we all know Florida was predominantly of the Franciscan Order.

 

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[lamar]

Dear elle;
It seems the founders produced a couple of errors with the St. Augustine bell. First, the N in ANO is backwards. Next, if the inscription reads:
SANTA MARIA ORA PROBONIS
First, in Latin the correct spelling is SANCTA and next, the inscription reads, SAINT MARY PRAY AND TO SHOW US, which doesn't make any sense whatsoever, m'lady. The correct inscription should have been
SANCTA MARIA ORA PRO NOBIS
which means:
HOLY MARY PRAY FOR US. This is actually part of the prayer Ave Maria, or Hail Mary in English. The entire prayer in Latin is as follows:
Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei,
ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc,
et in hora mortis nostrae.
Amen.

Please forgive me any spelling or grammarical errors as it's been a very long time since I've written it out.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[elle]

Lamar...you are...
brilliant!

And you have proven what I wrote in one of the posts a couple days ago...

"So many times early founders, whether working with Latin or with their mother tongue, were careless in the matter of spelling. I went through my book of ecclesiastical ornaments and there were many cases letters were jumbled according to no rule at all...ocassionally bell founders even reversed the order of their inscriptions...making me read the letters in reverse for a line to make any sense."

Seriously...good catch in seeing that error on the bell.
And I am glad someone read and appreciated my story.
Thank you,
Laura

 

[lamar]

Dear elle;
And you are correct in your assumption that the Christogram IHS is associated with the Jesuits. Even though the Christogram originated during the 3rd century AD, it was the Jesuits who popularized it, and they placed the IHS Christogram on virtually everything that is connected to their particular Order since their inception. Also, if some group other than the Jesuits had ordered the bell, they most likely would have utilized a far more common Christogram, the Chi-Rho (the tall P superimposed on an X).
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[aquanut]

This Guy has got to be joking!

 

[lamar]

Dear aquanut;
You wrote:
This Guy has got to be joking!

Could you please explain further, my friend?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[aquanut]

Lamar,
This post was meant for another thread. I don't know how it wound up here! My apologies. I'm sure you can tell that it's totally out of context.
Aquanut

 

[Panfilo]

Elle and Jason, in a very unprofessional experiment attempting to find any correlation between the documented bells that show the “IHS Maria” anagram and find out if they were hanging in Jesuit churches, I couldn’t find any matches. Obviously the numbers are not statistically significant and no conclusions can be derived but I thought it would be an interesting experiment to do. I concentrated in Spain as those bells are more easily documented. I used the Jesuit portal in order to cross-reference their churches with the bells I found. I’m posting also some pictures of these bells.

http://www.jesuitas.es/pages/compaF1EDa-de-jesFAs/en-espaF1a/parroquias.php:


1) Catedral Primada de Toledo, the bell has the following anagram: “IHS MARIA IOSEPH ANNO DE M DCC XXXVII” This Cathedral is not Jesuit, it is where the archdioceses of Toledo is located.
2) Iglesia de Santiago Apostol, Ermua, Espana. Bells anagram: “IHS MARIA AÑO 1699” This is a parochial church, not Jesuit
3) Catedral de la Virgen Maria, Tudela Espana. Bells anagrama: “IHS MARIA I IOSEPH ALABADO SEA EL SSMO SACRAMENTO DEL ALTAR”
4) Catedral de Santa Maria, Merida España. Bells anagram: “IHS MARIA DEL MAIOR #DOLOR AИO DE # I # 7 # 6 # 8”
5) Catedral de Burgos, España. Bells anagrama: “IHS MARIA SEPH ANO MD C C X L III”
Elle, I Would like to know if in your studies of the Jesuit missions the bells you have found have the IHS Maria anagram and if so which, you're the Jesuit expert. I only studie for 12 years in Benedictan schools, no Jesuits.

 

[elle]

I am sorry Panfilo...I do not have any pictures of the large Jesuit church bells...only hand-held ones.
I have other artifacts of the Jesuits in pictures.

 

[mariner]

Just an observation:

Althoughthe IHS, nails and sunrays are associated strongly with the Jesuits, the one indisputable phrase associated with them is AMDG - Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, To the Greater Glory of God. I had mentioned these letters in an earlier post, and then the curator at the bell museum cited them as the absolute Jesuit connevction. I wish I had a dollar for each time I wrote those letters while being eeducated by the Js.

I have tried to see if I could find an example of a bell carrying these letters, but could not do so. I wondered if anybody had come across a bell with these letters on? I assume not, as it would definitely have been worth mentioning, and might have established whether the presence of the letters was mandatory for a Jesuit bell.

Again, my admiration and particular thanks to Elle, Lamar and Panfilo for their contributions to this thread.

Mariner

 

[ghostdog]

Just for the heck of it,more Spaish bells, not as nice as your find though.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,138481.msg983438.html#msg983438

 

[lamar]

Dear panfilo;
Excellent work, my astute Benedictine taught friend! To proceed, we must always bear in mind a number of factors concerning this mystery bell.

First, the bell's size. This is a small bell, obviously intended for use at a mission type of structure. Bells in parish church towers were typically much larger, due to the fac that they needed to be heard over a greater distance. Perhaps you are unaware of the importance of the church bells in the medieval Roman Catholic church, therefore I shall go over the rubrics of the church bell and it's usage.

Catholic churches rang the bells eight times daily, once for each Divine Office. You may perhaps collectively know these
as the Liturgy of the Hours. The bells were rung to signal the start of each Divine Office and all clergy and monastics were expected to attend however, the laborers in the fields could not be expected to leave their labors and travel to church for every Divine Office, as they would be spending all of their time travelling to and fro and never getting any work done, therefore they ceased their labors every time the bells tolled, knelt and recited three Pater Nosters in place, after which they would return to their labors anew.

Obviously, in order for the church bells to be heard throughout the parish, the bell(s) needed to be quite large. Owing to the diminutive scale of this particular bell, we can conclude that it was not meant for a parochial church or Cathedral, rather it was intended to be heard only for a short distance, as was often the case in a mission type of environment.

Next, to address the Christogram IHS anew. The Christogram IHS has been in continual use by the Roman Catholic Church since the 3rd century AD, so there is nothing unusual in the Christogram itself. What we must do is to look at the IHS in the proper context.

We know there were 9 Catholic Orders which had missions in the New World colonies in the period in question, yet only one Order used the IHS exclusively and they were the Jesuits. Now, as difficult as it would be to get anyone to actually admit to this, there exists an amount of *rivalry* between the Orders, that is to state that while all the Orders came under the umbrella of the Vatican, there was, and still is, a certain amount of muted pride amongst the Orders. In other words, the various Orders often took great pangs to ensure they were not mistaken for another Order. This is why each Order has adopted a certain style of habit or, to have their habits arranged in certain color combinations.

Even the Jesuits, who have never had an official habit of their Order, even to this day, have adopted black as their habit color, and also their habit style in the New World was distinctly different from all the other Orders. For example, they wore robes which the sleeves could be easily rolled up and tied, and also the lower part of the robe could be unbuttoned almost to the waist and fashioned into pants legs, should the need arise. Their habits also never consisted of hoods or cowls, which were utilized by all other Orders of the day.

Next, we may examine the general location whence the bell was found. It was discovered in the Dominican Republic, which tells us that it was most likely inbound from Europe, for a purpose as yet unknown, however it would have most likely been bound for either a parochial church or a mission. If it were headed for a parochial church, then it should be a rather simple of finding out if there were any churches established in the Caribbean or South American colonies for the year in question. If not, then we may scratch that assumption off of the list as a possibility. And that leaves us with the most likely candidate, that it was bound for a mission. Also, the fact that it was cast with the Holy Cross on the Mount seems to tell us that it was most likely to have been used for a mission.

We can look at all other existing mission bells within the same general timeline and I think that it may be noted that no other Order had a bell with the Christogram IHS on it, except the Jesuits of course.

As an aside, I was taught by none other than the Jesuits. Do I sense a rivalry taking shape?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear mariner;
Yes, it is quite true that St. Ignatius is believed to have coined the phrase "Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam" and it quite often associated with the Jesuits, however it is their motto and as such, it is not utilized as part of their holy symbology as it is not deemed to be holy or pious. As a point of fact, the letter J does not exist in Latin and the letter I serves the same function as a constanant and it's pronounced the same as the English J. As prime example of this is IESUS instead of JESUS.

When I was in school, we had to place the initials AMDG on top of all of our papers, as a reminder that all we do should be Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam.
Your friend, AMDG
LAMAR

 

[Panfilo]

Now that’s a well documented historical dissertation on bells Lamar but if you stick to the facts found so far in an analytical way you must conclude that there is absolutely nothing inferred or implied that links Jason’s bell to the Jesuit order. There is on the other hand a respectable burden of evidence that supports the contrary view which I have so far believed strictly from a “seat of my pants” gut feeling that this very nice bell was a run of the mill bell that many small churches or homes or even as a secondary bell aboard a ship could have had. The IHS anagram or Christogram without the cross over the “H” was universal among religious orders as many bells with similar “jaculatorias” (to use the exact word, don’t know the English translation) have inscribed. Now let’s not forget Joaquins professional opinion, it’s not Jesuit. Let’s find something specific that places this bell in Jesuit hands like similar bells in Jesuit churches. No rivalry here Lamar just cold hard facts and analysis.

 

[elle]

We need to go to a historian in the Jesuit Order...send a picture...and explain our question.
It is time everyone.
The Jesuits I know are not affiliated with history at all...one is an astronomer, though, if anyone has "far out" questions for him...
Does anyone else know Jesuit professors in history departments?
I was just at Georgetown last month in the archives and received names of the professors there.
If you want I shall write them, ok?

Thanks Mariner for your kind words and thank you also for contributing...you are very wise in this field!

 

[lamar]

Dear panfilo;
The rivalry remark was made in referral to you being schooled by the Benedictines and me being schooled by the Jesuits, my friend. It was meant to be taken as a joke, which was in reference to my remark about the rivalry which exists between the Orders and nothing more.

A jaculatoria may be interpretted as a short saying or prayer, or even a motto with distinctly religious overtones.

I've also been known to disagree with professional opinions many times in the past and I've also won my share of debates amongst them.

I also tend to agree with your statement that the bell in question could have possibly been meant for many things, however if we take into account the Jesuits were the predominate Roman Catholic Order in the New World in 1635 and also the fact that the Jesuits had the largest number of missions and missionaries in the New World during the same time frame, by default the bell's previous owners being Jesuit automatically becomes the odds-on favorite.

Also, I've taken into account the half sun above the H which had been arranged there for a specific reason. This was no accident, it was plainly deliberate and the person who founded that particular bell meant to place that symbol there. The only Order which modified the existing IHS Christogram were the Jesuits and of course they would want something special to be placed above the H in order to stylize the IHS and show the proper heraldry.

The cross above the H was incorporated into the IHS for the specific and sole use of the Jesuits, my friend. St. Ignatius designed it to be that way and thus far it has not been altered. Taking into account that the foundry most likely would not have had a symbol with a cross above the H, they therefore would have been so inclined to modify an existing symbol which they did have, that being the sun, which is also associated with the Jesuits and only the Jesuits.

The half sun over the H is what lends much credence to the supposition that the bell was in fact either purchased by, or founded by, the Jesuit Order. I will not state that I am 100% sure, but I am willing to say that I am fairly certain of this, and for me, that is stating a lot.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear elle;
At the onset, I contacted a close friend of mine, who happens to be a Jesuit and a historian. We've been friends off and on since junior high and while he chose the path of the cloth, I took up the sword. To this day he still tries to set my feet firmly upon the path of rightousness, however he's had little luck thus far.

Unfortunately, he is currently in the Holy Land at the moment, however he did inform me that the Jesuits had operated a myriad of foundries at various times during their long and illustrious history, both in Europe and in the missions. The reason why the Jesuits operated foundries was because it was a skill which was in great demand and one which could be taught easily to the native populace. We must bear in mind that above all else, the Jesuits are dedicated to teaching and training.

While the Jesuits are known far and wide for their skills at teaching the scholarly subjects, such as astronomy, the classical arts, engineering, chemistry, etc, they also did far more in teaching the natives the trades necessary to help their societies grow and expand. The list includes agriculture, metal smithing and metal founding, carpentry, masonry, fishing, irrigation, and so on. In fact, the list of their accomplishments is practically without end.

Later this month I shall embark on another journey down *the Jesuit trail* which is to say that I will be taking a tour of the Jesuit missions of the Guarani indians of South America. I should like to give special attention to the bells in these missions, most of which have remained intact and good states of preservation, in the hopes of discovering a similiar bell to the one which you hope to attain information for.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Panfilo]

Dear Lamar:
If you’re going down South and happen to be coming this way, don’t hesitate to call on us here, we’ll show you some fine Jesuit churches also. As a matter of fact I’m currently taking an advanced paleography course that is being taught at the old Jesuit colonial headquarters in the old part of town with some spectacular architecture and history

 

[lamar]

Dear Panfilo;
If you are living in Colombia, then at the moment I happen to be further south than you, as I currently reside in Bolivia, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[ScubaFinder]

Hi gang, thanks again for more enlightening discussion. Unfortunately, I think the next clue in the bell mystery has to come from us (NCR). We hope to be back in the water pulling dated coins or other religous artifacts up soon. Scott Berry and I are headed to the U.S. to help facilitate negotiations with some new investors. With any luck, we'll be back in the water doing what we love soon. With a bit more luck, I'll have new artifacts that will further help us in dating the wreck, and hence determine much about the destination of the ship...and bell.

Finding money in today's economy is no easy task, so wish us luck that we can prevail quickly and get back into the water very soon.

Jason