Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning JD: Did, did, just helping Elle to 'id' that facinating / controversial Bell. And incidentally as a side feature, indirectly helping her with the funding for the restoration of the Mission of Tubares and finishing the costruction of the new one.

Incidentally Elle, there have to be plans for the new one somewhere. I doubt that they would build a new one without official suppport and permission. Remember an Altar and the necessary things for the new church were supposedly sent from Michoacan. Check your sources on this.

Rewrite / fill in history Elle ! It's fun.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[elle]

Dear Jose,

You have a beautiful sincere heart!
Thank you for the information to research.

As for Jason, I again wish you the best in returning one day to the
wreck where the bell was found.
You are an honest hard worker and deserve to excavate and save more artifacts!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Ellie: ever get to Tubares last june? If so did you find the large bell in the river bottom that I told you about?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello everybody,

I know that this topic was "hot" couple of years ago, not any more, but I think that the following information might be interesting for you, TH folk and shipwrecks researchers.....

Like it sometimes happens in the life of a researcher, I was doing a study on Spanish ships on the northern shore of Hispaniola and looking for completely different entry when I found very exciting information which I think could shed light into the find of this bell.

We already know that it is NOT a ship bell, but church bell. It could be part of ship's chapel or rather a cargo for some monastery or church in the New World. Also, the first opinion that the year on the bell is 1639 resulted to be most probably wrong, because of the old type of writing, it is more likely 1635. If I remember well, it was also part of the discussion on this Forum's topic. Happens, that I found a note about a Spanish ship that sailed from Spain in early 1635 and it was bound for Buenos Aires with a cargo for newly established Jesuit mission there. The ship never made it there and was presumed to be lost somewhere on the northern shore of Hispaniola. It is known that strong hurricane hit that area in the same year.

The ship in question was "San Miguel", urca of 220 tons, commanded by Diego de Ayala. The documents confirming this theory can be found in Seville in the Archive of the Indies under:
AGI, Ct. 2900 libro I., folio 253
Cf. 1643 A. e. Ct. 5119, Cadiz, 20th of May, 1644

I thought it could be interesting match.....

Best regards,
Lobo

 

[Trez]

Lobo,
Talk to Elle. I believe she knows more of this bell also.
Cheers,

Trez

 

[ivan salis]

interesting -- IHS in latin --In Hoc Signo * related back to when the roman emperor constanine had a "vision" of bright sun and a "cross" --and converted to being a christen (and after his victory it was "ok" to be a christan is roman areas which greatly helped in the spread of the religion) --he had his men put "cross's" on their shield on the day of the battle and said "in this sign we shall conquer" --in latin" In Hoc Signo' that is why IHS and the SHINING SUN symbol are use by the Jesuit order --in the sign of the cross , they shall conquer (convert the unholy) via their missions.

 

[Doubter in MD]

One of the more interesting threads I've read here. I'm not going to say whether I think ScubaFinder was trying to deceive anyone but the moderators obviously assumed it was found by him, and recently, or it wouldn't have made the banner.

Has there been any other news on this wreck in the last couple of years?

 

[aquanut]

One of the more interesting threads I've read here. I'm not going to say whether I think ScubaFinder was trying to deceive anyone but the moderators obviously assumed it was found by him, and recently, or it wouldn't have made the banner.

Has there been any other news on this wreck in the last couple of years?

You obviously have no idea what or who you are talking about.

 

[Doubter in MD]

You obviously have no idea what or who you are talking about.

If you say so. A bell found by someone other than the person who started the post, years before the post was made, would not have made the banner. So while ScubaFinder may not have intended to deceive, he certainly wasn't clear enough about the origin of the bell to allow the moderators of this site enough information to discern that it was not found by him or his crew.

Again, this is a very interesting thread. I will not pass judgement. It isn't my job and it violates the rules here. And again, have there been any updates in the last two years?

 

[Darren in NC]

I will not pass judgement.

Sounds like you already have. If Jason wanted to, he could have asked to have this post deleted. But he apologized already and most of us have accepted it and moved on. Your desire to stir it back up isn't welcome. If you need answers, send him a PM. He's the kind of guy who will be open with you.

 

[Doubter in MD]

Sounds like you already have. If Jason wanted to, he could have asked to have this post deleted. But he apologized already and most of us have accepted it and moved on. Your desire to stir it back up isn't welcome. If you need answers, send him a PM. He's the kind of guy who will be open with you.

No, I haven't. I don't know whether he intended to mislead anyone. While his posts were a little confusing, I have to assume it was not intentional. Does anyone else want to try to read my thoughts?

I guess there isn't any new news regarding this particular shipwreck. If we all stop talking about it, it will drop into obscurity again.

 

[old man]

Sounds like you already have. If Jason wanted to, he could have asked to have this post deleted. But he apologized already and most of us have accepted it and moved on. Your desire to stir it back up isn't welcome. If you need answers, send him a PM. He's the kind of guy who will be open with you.

Darren, good post. I find it rather odd that someone waits 5 years to comment on a post.
Sounds like someone has an agenda. Jason, I wouldn't pay any attention to this nonsense.
Anyone that knows you or knows your reputation, could care less about the agenda of some people.

 

[Doubter in MD]

Darren, good post. I find it rather odd that someone waits 5 years to comment on a post.
Sounds like someone has an agenda. Jason, I wouldn't pay any attention to this nonsense.
Anyone that knows you or knows your reputation, could care less about the agenda of some people.

No agenda. Love the thread. The information that was shared on this thread was amazing. I stumbled on it by accident. I clicked on ScubaFinder's banner find ( under his name) when I intended to click on someone else's.

I will move on. Goodnight.

 

[BillA]

Doubter, I think you have it.
Threads will be commented on only after they have been read, this is a large enough site that I sometimes read threads started years ago - like this one. A time lapse does not preclude comments and questions.

It is clear that partial - and seriously incomplete - "information" was released by the OP; and done so incrementally. Why ? Another poster proposes that the readers were deficient in not asking questions; not so, the questions asked were not answered. That is referred to as concealing information. The OP knew what he was doing, concealing absolutely relevant facts. Why ?

A Banner was awarded? After this manipulative posting crap ? And this really good friend (of so many) did not have the personal integrity/honesty to tell the mods the Banner was/is (?) a fraud ?
And so why has the Banner not been pulled ? [Mods please spike this Banner.] The OP has had an ethical failure, everything he says in the future must be evaluated for what was/might have been NOT disclosed.

And the bell, where was it found ? (Note that I am not referring to the Italian's collection, where was it "located" ?) We seem to be hearing 2ed or 3ed hand accounts of activities 20 odd years ago, from people who were how old at the time ?

My take is that it is a Spanish bell, and the OP has no physical evidence at all to link the bell to a specific wreck.
A curious thread, many quite superb bits of investigation; along with realms of detailed information.

Rules are OK, but only if they apply to all. Pull that Banner.
And the truth would have obtained the same research assistance.

Bill

 

[perkypuffin]

Jesuit Bell continued.

Although the bell is large, over 14 inches in height, I am pretty sure this 1639 dated bell is a ship's bell and not destined for a church. It could be a Spanish ship, but the bell crown is slightly different to many Spanish shipwreck bells. I am thinking that the ship may have been built in Croatia, with a bell from an Italian bell foundry and could be chartered or bought by any European nation including Dutch, Portugal etc Thus the ship could be going or returning to the New World. In conclusion. I say a ship's bell of European origin, other artefacts from the site are needed to identify the shipwreck. TOM Bennett

 

[perkypuffin]

Definitely Ship's bell and built as per date

Your wreck could be one of the smaller naos from the fleet.

All European bells would have similar Christian symbols at this time. It is in excellent condition and I agree would be lost about 1641. You will not be able to identify the wrecksite from this bell but it looks Spanish lost about 1641. Bells made in Seville just after 1611, were made of an alloy that gives severe chloride surface corrosion which this does not show. Perhaps they had corrected the bell metal alloy thirty years later which is suggested at the condition of this bell.
details in Bells from Shipwrecks ebook by Tom Bennett see Google books.