Whats going on in the DR?

[Goldust]

What's going on in the DR?

Haven't heard from Jason and Jack in the Dominican Republic. Hope things are well and successful.

 

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[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

I have been watching the weather and storm after storm has been going through there the last month.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Yep, so many storms and so little money we had to come to the states for a little while. We're just here to talk with some new investors and take care of some of our personal things that have been neglected for almost a year. We should be back in the water in a month or two depending on how our investor meetings go. We put some shiny stuff on the deck before leaving, so I don't think new investors will be much of a problem, but you never know in an economy like we have now.

We'll be back!

Jason

 

[Goldust]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Thanks for the update Jason. The best of luck to you guys.

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

According to this newspaper, authorities are a bit annoyed with all this treasure hunting activities...


Saquean patrimonio histórico en costas: Arqueólogo Pedro Borrell

Hoy, 21 Octubre 2009
Escrito por: FIOR GIL

Miles de piezas que fueron al fondo del mar por naufragios de los tiempos de la colonización han sido robadas de litorales dominicanos por no invertir para rescatarlas.

El experto en arqueología acuática Pedro Borrel denunció ayer que el patrimonio cultural subacuático del país esta siendo saqueado y que miles de piezas han sido extraídos de las embarcaciones que se encuentran en el fondo del mar por haber naufragado en aguas territoriales dominicanas.

El afamado arqueólogo acuático, asesor de la Oficina de Patrimonio Cultural, dijo que el patrimonio subacuático se está perdiendo, “se lo están robando”.

Expresó que eso pasa mientras el país deja perder la oportunidad de ese patrimonio por no contratar empresas especializadas para el rescate de las piezas históricas de importancia.

“Mi punto de vista es que el patrimonio subacuático se esta perdiendo, se esta diluyendo, se lo están robando”, manifestó.

El tema salió a relucir en el seminario taller “Convención sobre la Protección del Patrimonio Cultural Subacuático”, organizado por la subsecretaria de Patrimonio Cultural, que dirige Lourdes Camilo de Cuello.

Borrel dijo que puede citar 15 o 20 saqueos de los barcos de donde han sacado piezas que luego venden y que incluso se hacen ofertas por la vía de internet de dichas piezas.

Falta de recursos

El experto manifestó que la Oficina Nacional de Patrimonio Subacuático carece de recursos para realizar un efectivo programa con instituciones especializadas en el tema.

Citó el caso de que en varias ocasiones han contratado los servicios de universidades internacionales que se marchan por falta de fondo.
El seminario en el que se ofrecieron las declaraciones llevó a cabo en Museo de Arte Moderno.


http://hoy.com.do/el-pais/2009/10/21/298587/Arqueologo-Pedro-Borrell

 

[sphillips]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

English please!

 

[jeff k]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Plundered historical heritage coast: archeologist Peter Borrell

Today, 21 October 2009
Written by: FIOR GIL

Thousands of pieces that were at the bottom of the sea at times of colonization wrecks have been stolen from Dominican not invest to rescue them coastlines.

The expert in aquatic archaeology Peter Borrell yesterday reported underwater cultural heritage of the country this being looted and thousands of parts have been extracted from vessels in the bottom of the sea by having shipwrecked in Dominican territorial waters.

The renowned archaeologist aquatic, Advisor to the Office of cultural heritage, said that the underwater heritage is being lost, "is it are stealing".

Expressed that while the country lost the opportunity of this heritage by not hiring enterprises specialized for the rescue of historical importance parts that passes.

"My view is that the underwater heritage is this losing is this diluting, you are stealing", stated.

The issue came to mentioned the seminar workshop "Convention on the protection of the underwater cultural heritage", organized by the Under-Secretary of cultural heritage, which directs Cuello Camilo Lourdes.

Borrell said that you included 15 or 20 vessels from which have brought parts then sold and that even make offerings through such parts internet looting.

Lack of resources

The expert stated that the national Office of underwater heritage lacks resources for an effective program with institutions specialized in the topic.

He cited the case that on several occasions have hired international universities who leave for lack of background services.
The workshop offered statements carried in Museum of modern art.

 

[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Alexandre if you look at the posts by Treasure Finder (Jason Nowell) you will see that the company he is working for donates all its artifacts to the DR museum. If it were not for them, the locals would steal everything and it would be lost forever. If it were not for treasure hunters, nothing would be recovered for history to record.

 

[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Alexandre, quit reading those socialist newspapers. The people of DR think that treasure hunters are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They bring economic recovery. They hire local divers. They inject money into the economy and bring western freedom ideals.

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Alexandre, quit reading those socialist newspapers. The people of DR think that treasure hunters are the greatest thing since sliced bread. They bring economic recovery. They hire local divers. They inject money into the economy and bring western freedom ideals.

So does child prostitution, salvor6.

 

[Voldbjerg]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

So does child prostitution, salvor6.

I dont understand what you are doing on this board. You obviously dont want a dialogue.

From my point of view treasure hunters have tried to reach tolerable arrangements, but archies on their high horses trash treasure hunters on every given chance. Why are you against people making money from history? Your contractors make money on your digs as well wether it is chartering a boat or selling you a conservation lab. Just because somebody makes a buck does not make it stealing.

As an archie you shouldnt care about riches - you could spend time on fishing boats or the like and leave the profitable wrecks to treasure hunters - but i guess that an fishing boat does not give the same street credit as a treasure laden galleon. Archies are just as greedy as a TH. I'm rambling

Have a nice day

V

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

V.

If you look closely you will find that there is but a few of nations that have their nautical heritage ransacked and sold at auctions: a handful of French ships, some British ones and the majority of the pack is composed by Spanish and Portuguese ships.

My beef against the plundering of Portuguese ships is the same you would have if I went to the US of A, melted down the Liberty Bell and sold the scrap for a profit.

 

[Darren in NC]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

You parrot the same tired arguments of your elitist friends. If we had 50,000 Liberty Bells, I wouldn't care as long as a few of them ended up for public viewing. I don't know of any mainline treasure hunters who do not separate distinguished objects from artifacts of numerous quantity. This isn't the 1950's treasure hunting world anymore. Catch up. If you really want to make a difference, legislate dredging. That industry is doing far more damage to cultural heritage than any of the evil treasure hunters are doing.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Consolación Diver]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

That translation is horrible! Anyway, I understand that Borrell is the recently retired director of Patrimonio Cultural and I think he is saying that they are losing their shipwrecks to "looters" NOT archaeologists, (amateur or professional) which is what most treasure hunters are. Here is a better version:

http://www2.dominicantoday.com/dr/l...steal-colonial-era-wrecks-in-Dominican-waters

DR is one of the few countries smart enough to salvage their wrecks and recover their heritage before it completely rots away. Their museums are beautiful and the artifacts that amature archaeologists (treasure hunters) have recovered will still exist in another 300 years. When will these guys understand that the sea is a harsh environment and that leaving things in it is not preserving them?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Nice comments guys. Alexandre, you are missing a few points here that I can touch on after living and working as an amatuer archaeologist (professional salvor, whatever) in the Dominican Republic for over a year. First of all, Pedro Borrell used to head up the Oficina National de Patrimonial Cultura Subacuatico, he wrote our first permits for treasure salvage almost 25 years ago. He still acts as an advisor to the ONPCS and works closely with them to ensure that his original (and brilliant) model is still being followed. They are the office that issues and renews our treasure salvage permits, and their model is one of the best in the world. You'll notice that no-one, not even UNESCO or the Archaeological community would dispute that. ALL unique and historically important artifacts go to museums or study collections. From each wreck, these artifacts go all over the world, especially to the country of the vessels origin, as well as the university who taught students on their wrecks. (note: NCR has been directly involved in educating archaeology students from many universities.) The system in place there preserves more nautical heritage than any other, yet still allows for fair division of redundant artifacts with the salvor who spent the time, money, and risked his life to find and bring that history into the view of the people.

Lastly, Pedro is speaking of Dominican fishermen who are truly STEALING artifacts from wrecks and selling them to tourists. This problem exists everywhere, but Arq. Borrell has the forsight to make the problem public, and attempt to educate these fishermen, and convince them to report their findings. I personally paid for (out of my own pocket) the recovery of a mortar cannon, french coins, bottles, and other artifacts stolen off wrecks in our territory...Rick Berry, president of NCR has done 10 times more than me. All of these artifacts are in the ONPCS lab except for the cannon, which we are conserving on our own dime so that it may be displayed in the museum in Santo Domingo.

Just thought you might like to know what the article was actually saying....and how respected most of the salvors are in that country. It's a beautiful place with a lot of really good people trying to do the right thing for world heritage, AND the people who actually hit the water and bring it up. It's a win/win situation, but like all countries there are pirates out there, taking things from all coasts, and using it only to benefit themselves. You'll be hard pressed to find many treasure hunters with the same mindset.

 

[Bobadilla]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Dear TH friends,

I was personally present the whole day in this UNESCO convention about Protection of Underwater Patrimony in Santo Domingo last week. Pedro Borrell was sitting besides me and what he said was that the Dominican Republic has unfortunately no resources to watch over our underwater patrimony, there is no Dominican marine archaeologist, not enough boats to patrol and watch and catch looters, lack of personell and logistic. It is truth. He mentioned several shipwrecks that we know that they are permanently looted and sacked mainly by local fishermen. I know, I work as a volunteer with the National Agency for Underwater Cultural Patrimony of the Dominican Republic for couple of years and we permanently discuss this undesirable topic with the newly appointed Director of this institution and with Technical Director, Francis, who has had more than 30 years in this business. Sometimes I even buy the artifacts from the local people or dealers and donate it to the National Agency for them to have a record. It is really hard to protect the coasts and shores of this island from the local looters. I met Director of the National Agency and Pedro Borrell one more time last week in the Ministry of Culture and we discussed this topic again. There was also Charles Beeker, Director of the Indiana University in the UNESCO convention having the lecture. Indiana University has been trying hard to help to this country with real marine archaeology and protect, teach and publish what they have found for almost 20 years. It is practically only one university that is actually working on the island, doing great job now on the shipwreck "Queddah Merchant" off La Catalina Island. This spot has been already open for the public as underwater sanctuary and you can snorkel there and admire more than dozen cannons and some anchors from this pirate ship.

I strongly believe that treasure hunter can be at the same time marine archaeologist if he does his job well and with responsability, like we tried to do with NCR (with my great friend Jason) on the northern coast of the island. The huge source of the information about the shipwrecks, as you all know, come from the fishermen. They know their area like palm of their hand and if they want, they tell you. Sometimes they do not because they take out the artifacts by themselves, sell on the market and support their kids in the school and buy the food for family table. It is the reality, gentlemen, I have been living here for 11 years.

I would also like to state that the Dominican government has been always fair with treasure hunters, you can ask all three TH legends still working here - Burt Weber, Captain Tracy Bowden and Rick Berry.

Alexandre, you might be in the wrong Forum, we are not dicussing here child prostitution which you can find practically in ANY country of the Caribbean, in Central and South American countries, but also in Thailand and countries of Asia. We all are here to share the information about the shipwrecks, salvage technology, sometimes even help each other, and have a great time looking for treasure.
That's all.

Lobo
(Bobadilla)

 

[Chagy]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Well I guess now you heard it from the mouth of an marine archaeologist....
___________________________________________________________________
Compadre glad to see you back in the boards...shot me an e-mail...we need to talk!!!

Send our love to Blanq......

 

[Bobadilla]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Check your email, Chagy....

Best regards,
Lobo

 

[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Well Alexandre, what can you say about this? This is about the most honest assessment concerning marine archaeology that I can see to preserve maritime heritage.

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Well Alexandre, what can you say about this? This is about the most honest assessment concerning marine archaeology that I can see to preserve maritime heritage.

Hey salvor, anytime you go after artifacts in order to sell them, you are doing treasure hunting, not archaeology.

If you look closely, you will find that 99% of treasure hunters (I am counting out the bottle collectors and the Civil War buffs) will dedicate themselves to a very thin slice of history - from the 1500's till the 1900's - and that they target essentialy only 4 maritime nations: the Dutch, the Spanish, the Portuguese and a bit of the English vessels.

So, in the end, who will study all the other millenia of maritime history, who will study all those phoenician, greek and islamic ships?

Not treasure hunters, I am afraid. And, as I have said somewhere else, with the exception of Robert Sténuit, I have yet to see a good treasure hunter (and by good, I mean a good archival researcher, a good excavator, a good and honest-to-God-writer)... usually, they spend more time boasting about the shipwrecks that they are going to find than actually finding them