Paulo Monteiro

[OldGold74]

I found this on the net, are your views still the same or have you mellowed you seem opinionated or for better words (maybe not) "outspoken" There is a balance Paulo or you would not be posting here, by the way those a nice pictures from SWA what an incredible place with great beer!

http://www.abc.se/~pa/publ/monteiro.htm

[OldGold74]

You have an incredible opportunity to not only share but to work towards a common goal, by posting here you know you will get a certain response how you reply determines your nature, arrogant or ignorant or trying to find a medium for the good of history, i would like to believe you are reaching out to find that common ground otherwise this forum does not seem like it can benefit you. Not everyone has to be a fan of Marx times change however and people change why not give advice on working with everyone and lets try remove the bs, I am sure any information relating to SWA and the wreck there would be appreciated by all on this forum and any others for that matter, this is not an attack on you personally and I dont speak for anyone else, life is short.

[Alexandre]

Old Gold, what do you mean by SWA?

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hola, Paulo. nice to have you on board
Ossy

[cuzcosquirrel]

The quote about the silver doubloons always slays me. Seems like I read almost an exact paraphrasing of this whole article somewhere else. The guy has a point though, or at least half of one. It tends to cubby hole anybody wanting to excavate a wreck as a cultural looter based on 20 to 30 year old methods and behavior around the Azores. Well, the Mercedes tends to prove his point today, but there are probably also people who could also do a decent job at artifact recovery now. You never see any mention of the Girona, or other decent salvage efforts on ships.

[OldGold74]

SWA - South West Africa? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namibia
The boat that was located while mining for diamonds, some of the best photographs ever, one of the best would be the one where the police are on site and one of the staff explains the days finds to the policeman, the look from his eyes while he looks at the policeman and the coins...priceless if you come from this neck of the woods. Takes me back 20 years. I assume that you started posting here more frequently after someone mentioned you were working on this site or may be working on it? Anyway great opportunity. Since you wrote the article http://www.abc.se/~pa/publ/monteiro.htm has anything changed?

[Alexandre]

Since you wrote the article http://www.abc.se/~pa/publ/monteiro.htm has anything changed?

Yes! I got older!

Anyhow, show me a treasure hunter that keeps archaeological records and publishes his finds (even on his personal site, even in pdf format) and I will try to maintain a civilized conversation....

[jeff k]

Yes! I got older!

Anyhow, show me a treasure hunter that keeps archaeological records and publishes his finds (even on his personal site, even in pdf format) and I will try to maintain a civilized conversation....

http://www.shipwreck.net/featuresarchpapers.php

[Alexandre]

Dr. Sean Kingsley, Deep-Sea Fishing Impacts on the Shipwreck of the English Channel & Western Approaches (2009) and Hawk Tolson, The Jacksonville 'Blue China' Shipwreck & the Myth of Deep-Sea Preservation (2009) - nice, but very biased (would you ask a barber if you are in need of an haircut? basically, what they are saying is: the approach is "they are being destroyed, so let me destroy them right now" instead of "this is what we can do to protect them").

All the other, I have to read them, first.

[jeff k]

The British Navy sent one of their research ships out to survey the HMS Victory site last summer. On board were archaeologists from Wessex Archaeology. Guess what, they confirmed the damage that Odyssey had previously reported.

http://www.wessexarch.co.uk/

[Alexandre]

I am not questioning that "incalculable wreck destruction has already occurred and is ongoing due to fishing activities".

If you have read this post of mine:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.p...,279780.0.html

you must have seen that we are already trying to deal with that issue.

I am not even questioning that paper's conclusion. What I am saying is that the diference between having a shipwreck being bottom trawled and being ransacked by Odyssey is nil. The sites get destroyed in the end.

After all, archeologically speaking, what do we know about the Mercedes site?


Anyhow, I do not fathom what else is new about that report: everybody knows that wrecks have always attracted fishing boats - as matter of fact, several of us have heard about the said wrecks because some fisherman told us his list of snags.... right?

[Salvor6]

Alexandre, I can mention a dozen wrecks that non-profit institutes (like INA) have excavated where there is no published records of the finds. Example: Mardi Gras wreck (INA), La Belle (INA), Emmanuel Point wreck (UWF), Pepper wreck (Paulo Montiero), Angara A (Paulo Montiero), Angara B (Paulo Montiero), etc, etc, etc, etc. What good does it do to finance your excavations when we will never find out the results of our investment?

[Alexandre]

Well, Salvor6, they have all been published.

- The Pepper wreck (I helped to excavate it, but it was in fact directed by Filipe Castro) has, not only several articles on IJNA (as happens with the majority of those wrecks mentioned by you), a myriad reports, but has also a whole book on it:

http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2005/castro.htm

- You can find all kind if stuff about the Mardi Gras (including reports) here:

http://www.flpublicarchaeology.org/mardigras/

- The La Belle, I even remember having read a very preliminary report on it when I attended the 1997 SHA session in Corpus Christi. Here's a lot more, even a book:

http://www.thc.state.tx.us/belle/lasbiblio.shtml

- The Emanuel Point shipwreck has produced at least two reports that are a MUST READ, if you are interested in early iberain ships of the Discoveries:

http://www.flheritage.com/archaeolog.../emanuelpoint/

- Angra A and B have been published in the Portuguese National Archaeology Magazine and work on Angra B is almost finished (it, too, is an early Iberian shipwreck)

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/shiplab/angra07-angrab.htm

http://www.ipa.min-cultura.pt/pubs/R...folder/255.pdf

http://www.ipa.min-cultura.pt/pubs/R...folder/249.pdf

[Vox veritas]

Hi Paulo, in a splendid day of November 1989, I lunch with Francisco Alves in Lisbon. I intended to give and to publish all the information that had about shipwrecks in Portuguese waters, but with the condition that this information was published.
Mr. Alves answered me: certain information has to continue reserved (that is to say, not disclosed). If Mr. Alves has memory he won't be able to deny what related, and he will surely remember our lunch and my proposal.
At the end, in the underwater archaeology all are hidden interests.
Cheers VV

[Alexandre]

Hey Claudio,

We can publish it together, if you want to, or you can even publish it on your own (if I recall correctly, you had several shipwrecks that have occured in Portugal printed in your book) - that's what I have been doing for the past 15 years. Even here, on this forum....

[OldGold74]

Paulo who determines who the treasure hunter is? Are we governed by one opinion?

[capthawk]

Why does it come down treasure hunter v. archaeologist? doesn't anyone think that the main purpose is "salvage" - salvage is a good thing - it means recovery, it means saving from the sea - I love the sea I have sailed on it , dove in it , loved it since a child but I am also aware that the sea is destructive - it will take my boat, my life, without a thought. the ships and lives it has taken - it makes no effort to preserve their bones or the frame of their hulls. Silver left in the sea - well anyone reading this should know what happens. so we, who seek to recover, are the destroyers? that makes no sense. carry on the search for whatever reason - profit or academia - but recover and save what has been lost.

[Alexandre]

Paulo who determines who the treasure hunter is? Are we governed by one opinion?

Well, if you are into looking for and selling artifacts, that's a pretty good clue...

[Alexandre]

carry on the search for whatever reason - profit or academia - but recover and save what has been lost.

I have no problems with that - as long as you use an archaeological method and not Bob Marx's method of just yanking the goodies out of that wreck.

[capthawk]

"goody yanker" or is that "goodie"

might be the name of my next boat -