Search for the Flor do Mar

[Batavia]

I have heard that several teams were after the wreck of the Flor again, in the Malacca straits... And one in particular with Indonesian authorizations already...!

Any news about this venture ?

 

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[Alexandre]

I have heard that several teams were after the wreck of the Flor again, in the Malacca straits... And one in particular with Indonesian authorizations already...!

Any news about this venture ?

Oh God.... The Flor de la Mar... Again??

This ship was completely salvaged in the aftermath of the sinking. How do you think the local ruler got so rich suddenly?

There's a ton of documents relating to that wreck in the Portuguese archives, but you people keep on reading old Bob Marx fairy tales.

 

[Vox veritas]

I have heard that several teams were after the wreck of the Flor again, in the Malacca straits... And one in particular with Indonesian authorizations already...!

Any news about this venture ?

Oh God.... The Flor de la Mar... Again??

This ship was completely salvaged in the aftermath of the sinking. How do you think the local ruler got so rich suddenly?

There's a ton of documents relating to that wreck in the Portuguese archives, but you people keep on reading old Bob Marx fairy tales.

Yes, Bob Marx's fairy tales. How many fallen? A lot. It would be already the time to revise them and to file them.

 

[Salvor6]

Batavia, where did you hear about this?

 

[Batavia]

Hope for the possible investors who are thinking to put their money into this venture will think twice...!! :-)

But I guess Michael Hatcher will be clever enough to convince some of them. again... Hahaha... !

He is asking for several millions of $$$ for the recovery of a Ming porcelains cargo which will give a ticket to go for the search of the Flor... Or is it another scam to get the maximum of money for this initial salvage which is not worth the amount... I know, at least, one American guy who is actually suing him for more than 1 million $ that he forgot to give back...

 

[FISHEYE]

Its funny that people read the books of the "old Bob Marx fairy tales"I have not read any of his books.

 

[Batavia]

Its funny that people read the books of the "old Bob Marx fairy tales"I have not read any of his books.

Extract from a document distributed by Hatcher dated June 2009

Investment opportunity

This comprehensive document includes information, references and photographic proof of our recent discovery.
We are encouraging investments from external parties to assist in the retrieval of this recent find and salvage and benefit in the sale of items of very rare Ming Dynasty porcelain.

There is a sizable return of investment approximately eight to ten times the injected investment and an approximate turnaround time of investment of 12 months....

Invested parties are welcomed if interested and qualified to dive the site and retrieve artefacts with our retrieval team at their side and will be allowed to keep up to five small pieces for their own personal collection.

This opportunity will also gain you access to our next project of the retrieval of the Flor Del La Mar which sank in 1512 worth USD 2 billion.

The Flor De La Mar
“In 1512 Dom Afonso de Albuquerque sailed for the coast of Malabar. On the voyage a violent storm arose, Albuquerque’s vessel, the Flor De La Mar, which carried the treasure he had amassed in his conquests, was wrecked, and he himself barely escaped with his life.”

This is a once in a life time opportunity and something that is rarely repeated to be a part of history and make possible the opportunity to play a part in rewriting the history books as we know them. Positions are limited and this opportunity will not be available again from our group.

So seize this opportunity and join our quest.....

We require USD $5 Million to complete the salvage, which includes buying and converting a barge to be the main recovery vessel and one tug boat for towing and positioning the four anchors to hold the barge over the wreck at the completion of the project. The barge and tug and other equipment purchased shall be sold off and the proceeds returned to the investment syndicate.

It’s hard to accurately estimate the cargos current market value internationally, although with high demand for
this type of merchandise in China’s economy we can conservatively estimate a worth well in excess of USD200 million.

A percentage of proceeds from books, films and sponsorship will be distributed back to investors as a bonus and the first right of refusal on the unique opportunity to invest in the retrieval of the Flor del la Mar.

Etc..."

 

[Vox veritas]

Its funny that people read the books of the "old Bob Marx fairy tales"I have not read any of his books.

Fish, is very amusing and in them the several incidents are related in Marx's extensive career, but they are very questionable from a historical point of view and they have many documentation errors, voluntary and non volunteers. Very debatable the historical primary source. Undoubtedly he has known how to take out juice of them.

 

[Alexandre]

Its funny that people read the books of the "old Bob Marx fairy tales"I have not read any of his books.

They are actually quite fun to read. That is, if you do no plan to spend some money with his information as basis...

 

[Alexandre]

Flor De La Mar : An Early Epilogue of the Lost Ship 1511 (Portuguese Documents On Malacca)

Article By: Mohd. Sherman b. Sauffi (Maritime Archaeology Museum)


The legend of the lost ship on the Portuguese fleet called Flor De La Mar (Flower Of The Seas) had been an agenda of story telling, speculations and assumptions for many years since her lost in December 1511. Lots of theories and speculations about her, that make her “A billion dollar baby”, some said that she lost or vanished on the unfaithful event, some said that she have been taken over and all the treasures are stolen, some says that she had been destroyed by rivals ships and most provocative some says that the ship was not lost and know whereabouts the ship but somehow until now, well 500 years later, it can never be found elsewhere and remains a mysteries.

Enjoy the silence? We are actually got away from our leagues ladies and gentlemen. Before we jump into conclusions about anything, there’s a good start we look at the early document of “Portuguese Document On Malacca 1509 until 1511”, collected, translated and annotated by the late M.J Pintado with National Archives of Malaysia in 1993. It is a “Long Term Project” which was started the ideas since 1974. Credits goes to all the personnel who work on the project especially Dato’ Zakiah Hanum Nor, Ex-Director General National Archive Malaysia.

The written historiography collections with importance which had information about Malacca, “Letters from Alfonso de Albuquerque” in 7 volumes and the six Chroniclers - Joao de Barros, Diogo do Couto, Fernao Lopes de Castanheda, Gaspar Correia, Damiao de Goes and Manuel de Faria e Sousa. The document itself had information about what really happen to the ship Flor de La Mar.

On the Document 2 (1511), Portuguese Republic Ministry of Colonies Asia Joao de Barros, Chapter II, “What Alfonso went through along the route that he took fom Cochin to the island of Sumatra, where he was visited by the King of Pedir and Pasai and what else he did up to the time he arrived in Malacca”, Document no. 13 noted “ …together with other jewellery taken as spoils from Malacca and put on aboard the galleon Flor de La Mar, as we shall further on”.

The unfortunate event that bring Flor de La Mar to bottom of the sea stated on the Book Seven Of The Second Decade of Asia by Joao de Barros, “The Achievements of the Potuguese in the exploration and conquests in the lands and seas of the east, after Alfonso de Albuquerque’s departure from Malacca to his entry into the red sea” Document no. 224, “ Above all they had to brave the fury of the storms at sea and the danger of the sandbanks near the coasts….”, Document no.225, “The truth of this we are going to see in the notable example of Alfonso de Albuquerque, who left Malacca with his galleons filled with trophies. Sailed as far as the Kingdom of Aru at the end of the region called Timia Point in Sumatra. There at night his galleon was dashed against a hidden reef and broke up into two parts with the poop in one section and the prow in the other, because the ship was old and the seas heavy”.

Alfonso indeed inside the ship and his men unable to get aid from other ships that sails along with them. By the following morning, Pero de Alpoem, a captain from another ship called “Trindade”, gave aid for the shipwrecked men in a ship’s boat and save them from tragic fate. During the period of danger, Alfonso had many precious things in his ship but the only “precious things” he saved was a little girl, the daughter of one of his slaves, while standing on a raft he held the child in his arms – the only things that he saved from among the rich spoils he had obtain from Malacca which were in his galleon. The great loss of Alfonso which is refers to his honor on the ship were the two lions hollowed iron, fine piece of craftsmanship and artistry, which the emperor of China had sent as gift to the Sultan of Malacca.

Another interesting note on the event was the mutiny by the Javanese workers, on a Junk in the company of Jorges Nunes de Leao, the junk did not steer along the right course and entered the port of Aru, where the Javanese and the natives robbed it. Alfonso did go the wreck site with seeking help of Captain Jorge Bothello by using a ship Carravel type and enquire the natives who dived for pearls to dive the wreck site. However, the natives near the coastal area of Pasai might have robbed most of the cargo.

There were more than 10 ships responsible on the Malacca invasion campaign by the Portuguese in 1511, to name few, Flor de La Mar, Trindade, Anunciada, Santo Antonio, Santa Cruz, Bretao, Taforeia, Enxobregas, Cambaia, Santa Caterina, Joia, Santiago and Sao Joao. The Portuguese were the first pioneering Europeans to established empire in Southeast Asia by the invasion of Malacca , August 1511 througout 130 years before the Dutch did. Alfonso de Alburquerque died in 1515, where he left behind the legacy of navigations and established Portuguese maritime control from the Persian Gulf to Malacca, to the great enrichment of the monarchy.

However, some questionable speculations about The Flor de La Mar cargoes: where did it really go? Where all the treasures of Malacca Sultanate that had been robbed? If the ship were broke into two parts, why nowadays people claim that they knew and found the wreck?

If we calculate for 500 years including the changing of tides, currents and based on the unstable geographical of Sumatera, does the ship still there? Just for comparison, the Fort Santiago at Malacca A’ Famosa fortress if we look at the picture closely we sees that the sea is near the fort but 500 years later then compare the picture with the new land of Malacca, it is about 5 kilometers out from the cultural sites. Now look at the Sumatera coastal area and think again. More research need to be taken and document to be analyzed, considerations for regions political issues, economics and diplomacy. We need to take a deeper look to this point so that the cultural heritage of Malaysia, Indonesia and Portuguese will be preserved with proper research and a little bit of sincerity in doing it.


Phil-Sherman William @ Mohd. Sherman bin SauffiMaritime Archaeological Museum
Department Of Museums and Antiquities
Jalan Damansara
50566 Kuala Lumpur
MALAYSIA
Tel: 603 2282 6255 ext 228
Fax: 603 2284 9103
H/p: 6013 895 0198

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Alexandre,

May I ask you where did you get the information that "Flor do Mar" was completely salvaged while sinking?

I do not know how you, Alexandre, but I respect the people who without any doubt have done something extraordinary in their lives and Robert Marx is one of these men. You refer his books and informations like "fairy tales". You may not know that 90% of all the information about the shipwrecks in Bob's Marx books are dated prior 1962. After that there have been only new editions of the books (Shipwrecks of the Western Hemisphere, renamed "New World Shipwrecks" in other editions, and so on). I was lucky to meet this treasure hunters/marine archaeologist legend in person no so long ago and I spent with him couple of days. We also touched the topic of "Flor do Mar" and his proven record about salvaging this shipwrecks couple of years ago together with his photos taking out the artifacts and catalogizing them speak for me clearly. He might be wrong in some details about shipwrecks in his books because he made his primary researches 40 years ago but somebody who discovered almost 3000 shipwrecks in last 60 years of his life deserves at least certain respect.

I respect your evident knowledge Alexandre about Portuguese shipwrecks and not only about Portuguese ones but also about the general topic of underwater archaeology, though I have different opinion in some points but I think that this excellent Forum is open Forum and unless somebody offends somebody else, everyone can express his or her personal opinion. I just wrote here mine.

Regards,
Lobo
(Bobadilla)

 

[Alexandre]

Lobo, I also met Bob Marx in person about twelve years ago, in the Azores Is. We had a meeting at the Angra Museum, in which he told me two things, basically: that, since I was lobbying for him not to get a permit, he would buy the f*****g island in order to excavate our 100 plus Iberian wrecks and how he run me over with a truck before the buy.

Neither has happened, yet.

I do not know what wrecks has he found worldwide but I can assure you that the bits he has written regarding Portugal are about 95% lore (a friend of mine, admiral Max Justo Guedes, from the Brazilian Navy, says the same thing regarding Brazil).

As for the Flor de la Mar, I already stated where to go in search for answers - go to the primary accounts, archived at the ANTT. Check this topic:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,279413.0.html