archie fest at amelia island -jan 6th - 6 to 8 pm amelia ballrooms 3 &4 * public

[ivan salis]

they will be having a open to the public comments welcome * event title --- COASTALLY CONNECTED-CURRENT ETHICAL AND PRESERVATION DILEMMAS ON LAND AND WATER - well folks time for us to have our say and ask them straight blunt questions in public .

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[itmaiden]

Oh, this is perfect timing for a post I was about to make. Last night I was researching government documents and found a state "archaeological report" which sounded like an "environmental" report, regarding a shipwreck site and Indian artifacts also found at the site from the ship salvage team. Nothing more than a few "points" and a bit of broken ceramic.

The first thing of note was the statement that the information contained in the report "was not for the general public". Part of the report was "concerned" that because of the presence of Indian artifacts (which could have fallen off a canoe/logboat, been thrown into the sea, or the result of spearfishing), that the site was possibly a former land site that had become sunken lands and such a site would be valuable for study (because it was sunken lands) (my wording not theirs).

So basically, they wanted to hold up the ship salvage to "preserve" what might have been a former land archaeological site. The state archies did hold up salvage efforts to search for Indian artifacts and take geological samples of the ocean sediments and to conduct mineral testing.

The report was full of all the usual "expert" propaganda and suggested more Federal regulations and protection of sites. (If the state hasn't confiscated enough under the guise of "state parks", "preserves", and "refuges")
(I noticed Disney World wasn't told they were destroying important wetlands, inland wildlife habitats, and delicate "ecosystems" when they drained all the swamps in Orlando...oh and don't they own a resort at Wabasso on former Indian grounds ?). We must consider all the pristine coastlines sold to "developers" even though they were true archaeological sites. There were Indian encampments up and down the St. Lucie River too, but all that land was sold to developers.

Then last night I also read another report...from the archies, and it was full of archie bull too. What was really great about it, the statements in that report, contradicted statements in the other. Can't archies decide which propaganda story lines they are going to stick with ?

Anyway, it was claimed in the first report, that the claims by salvagers that archie data will be lost and artifacts destroyed if not salvaged more quickly was not valid. They claimed that high energy wave action does not "damage" archie sites and artifacts. (Tell that to the ships of the 1715, that high energy wave action doesn't destroy ships. And just how long do archies think wood and metals etc last in the sea ?).

Anyway, it was obviously a report made by an archie who had to "make it look" like he was doing his job to justify his nice state salary.

itmaiden

they will be having a open to the public comments welcome * event title --- COASTALLY CONNECTED-CURRENT ETHICAL AND PRESERVATION DILEMMAS ON LAND AND WATER - well folks time for us to have our say and ask them straight blunt questions in public .

[wreckdiver1715]

Go get em!

[scubatreasure]

I would like to go to the meeting and throw my shoe at one of these Archies...like the guy in Iraq did to bush...but I'm not sure which Archie do I hit?

[ivan salis]

all of em , that want to shut the public and treasure hunting groups out --and want the sandbox solely for themselves.

[mad4wrecks]

Dont hit Sinclair or Westrick...those two are okay in my book.

[ivan salis]

there are some "ok" archies but --90% want the sandbox just for them.

[Galleon Hunter]

I am a professional marine archaeologist. I will be giving a presentation at the SHA conference in January on a wreck we have been working on in the Gulf of Mexico. I have always thought archaeologist should try to work with treasure hunters for the good of everyone involved. Over the years I have learned a lot from Bob Weller, Art Hartman, Bob Marx, Jack Haskins, John Brandon, Mo Molinar and a lot of others I have had the opportunity to work with and call my friends.

If for some reason someone feels the need to come and throw a shoe at me, be my guest, I'd like to see you try.

[Galleon Hunter]

I wouldn't even go as far as saying 90% are bad. One of the things my professor Gordon Watts did while in Bermuda is take us all to meet Teddy Tucker. One of the grad students was appaled. She said "but he is a treasure hunter" to which Gordon replied "That treasure hunter has found more shipwrecks than you will ever see in your lifetime."

Most see that there is a lot both groups can learn from one another. Unfortunately there are those that see no compromise and they are a very vocal group in expressing their opinions.

[Salvor6]

Like mad4wrecks said not all archies are bad. Juat the ones that work for the state. They are like the so called climate specialists from the U. of East Anglia that manipulate data to fit their own needs.

[ivan salis]

folks that know me know the archies that I spealk of are the ones that would like to bar all "others" from "thier" sandbox -- "the just say no to the public & treasure hunter types" crowd

[itmaiden]

Well I agree that archies that work for the "state" are given their "right" to hog the sandbox so there are no other contenders for what may be there. I was really appalled by the Israel Antiquities group a few years ago, when I saw a website that was put up (by Israel) selling off their "precious" archie artifacts for "profit". Then Florida also considered "selling off" some of the Spanish Treasure not too long ago. So if it is of such "historical value" then why would they consider selling off to private collectors or souvenir hunters when history would be lost to "private safes and closets" ? And look at Spain's interest in what the Odyssey brought up.
Surely they did not want thousands of the same kind of coinage for a museum display...

Hypocrisy at it's best !

(On a side note, one of the items Israel had up for sale was a small statue of a what appeared to be a pagan goddess. Interesting item as it was strikingly similar to the Statue of Liberty, which now makes me question the authenticity and original purpose of the gifted statue).

itmaiden

folks that know me know the archies that I speak of are the one that would like to bar all "others" from "their" sandbox -- "the just say no to the public & treasure hunter types" crowd

[billinstuart]

My experience with "state archeologists" is that they are grossly incompetent. We, the public, pay their salaries, yet they have this cavalier and arrogant attitude towards those who financially support them. Clueless desk jockeys.

[Darren in NC]

Any chance we could stop throwing shoes and turn this thread into ideas about working together? How about a round table of both "sides" who begin initiatives that include both working together for the best of both the public and those recovering?

[Voldbjerg]

Any chance we could stop throwing shoes and turn this thread into ideas about working together? How about a round table of both "sides" who begin initiatives that include both working together for the best of both the public and those recovering?

words of wisdom!!

[itmaiden]

Okay, we can divide up territories, sites and treasures.
We TH's get all Spanish, Dutch, French, British, and Asian wrecks laden with Treasure.
Archies get launches, and all personal watercraft
As far as other wrecks, first come first serve.

We TH's get 1/2 of all Indian or other prehistoric sites

TH's get 1/2 of all civil war sites (just how many civil war buttons can you archive anyway ?)

TH's and Archies divide all ancient cities 50/50.

Anything else...first come first serve.

Now, that's settled, let's have an archie TH party !
(see, that wasn't hard)

itmaiden

Any chance we could stop throwing shoes and turn this thread into ideas about working together? How about a round table of both "sides" who begin initiatives that include both working together for the best of both the public and those recovering?

[ivan salis]

I'm willing to work together --- but you can't work with folks --who act like spoiled 3 year olds -- look at everything in sight grabbing it up and screaming "mine,mine,mine" and biting anyone who dares to try to touch their "things". -- folks that both make and bend the rules to suit their whims and fancies.

if they acted like reasonible, intelligent , adult folks as a few archies are known to do ** then yes you can "deal" with them , and I would happily deal with em.

[SEAHUNTER]

I have worked with the archaeologists at the state of Florida and found them to be reasonable and fair to work with and actually very informative and knowledgeable. I don't think slamming them on the internet will make them any more willing to work with us. In Florida we have laws that allow treasure hunting and the archaeologists there are aware of them and abide by them. I doubt that is true in many other places, although it seems top me that I remember Scubafinder saying they had good working relationships in the Dominican Republic.
Just my two cents worth.
Seahunter

[digum smacks]

how can i put this simply "they take away my rights".i had this issue a couple of days ago.if i say more i incriminate myself.so how can i say anything good about these people.the rules are set and they can be changed.we need to get these people out of here.there are archies on this site i wont mention names,that are 2 faced.want proof?look at the rights they have taken away.get them out of there.you heard the saying 1 bad apple ruins the batch.in this case you need to get rid of all of them and get a good batch,even if there is "some"ok ones they have to go!!! period

[Sapper23]

Working with the State of Florida: " yes and no..." Many, many moon's ago. a few hunters came across a
a site, on an Island around Saint Augustine : it turn out : a Spanish settlement site dated back to 1530's, along with a Revolutionary, and a Civil War site. One of the hunters, was a archaeologists: you can guess, " what happend".
The good thing, and the only good thing was: everyone kept what they founded: few months went by: The land was
taken from the owner: it became a state park. the landowner got ZERO $$$ for the land. Has the time's changed.
Between TH's and Archaeologists... since then