Physics problem # 2 - Treasure Weight/Mass/Density

[itmaiden]

Hey Everyone,

We've been discussing the 1715 Hurricane in one of the posts below. The diameter, speed, and direction of the Hurricane can only be speculated since we have no accurate scientific records for that time period. According to the accounts given, the Hurricane was pretty bad.
The Flagship sank supposedly after being blown against a reef and being split in two with the upper deck splitting from the lower deck. Another ship which apparently observed the sinking of the Flagship said the Flagship sank "4 hours earlier", referencing that their ship was still afloat and maintained floatation for some time though pushed toward the shore. The Hurricane could have been a Category 3 or higher.

As the force of the Hurricane increased the ships were pushed closer to shore. Some were anchoring in 30-40 feet of water as a last ditch effort to save themselves and their ships.

The manifests were different for each ship as well as the number of crew, and whether they carried other passengers. The size and volume of each ship differed.

*Chests of gold are generally going to be heavier than chests of silver
*Iron chests are heavier than wood chests
*Porcelain is lighter and we know from a couple of accounts was stored in wooden chests
*Free objects of utilitarian or ornamental use were usually small and lighter
*Iron cannons are heavy
*The wood from ships would be quite buoyant

We know from written records that the ships were heavily loaded which meant less air space within the ships themselves making them more susceptible to sinking. History tells us it is a common practice to throw heavy objects overboard to save a ship. There does not appear to have been any time or thought to doing that with the 1715 fleet, so we assume the treasure all went down with the ships.

Now comes the problem of determining the buoyancy of any part of the ship and it's objects considering the speed, depth, volume of water available at the time the ships sank along with direction.

Dell Winders wrote in a posting below:
>This is a great intellectual discussion for Historians and Archaeologist. I enjoy it, but do you have any information for Treasure Hunters? Which direction did the tons of Gold end up at? <

I jokingly replied "down". However, I was only halfway joking.

Gold is heavier than any other object on board any of these ships. It was being shipped in different forms; coinage, bars, chains, etc. The same with the silver.
The closer the ship made it to shore before breaking up, the closer the treasure made it in all forms. We know treasure was stored in different parts of the ships depending on what it was, and who it belonged to. Treasure can be stored in the forecastle, a stern castle or even placed on lower decks above the ballast and in some historical ships "as ballast". This is aside and apart from personal items of value carried or worn by passengers and crew.

The work involves determining the position/location of each ship before it sank or broke up, how it broke up, and what water forces it was contending with at the moment.
Different ships broke up at different depths though we know most if not all made it fairly close in to shore if not right on shore.
The ships can be easily anywhere from shore to 3/4 mile out.

Some ballast piles are known and those are the best to work with at the present time.

While a Stern Castle would have a good amount of "air space" to contribute to buoyancy, if it broke apart and water got in, it would have sank shortly after separation from the ship if it was overpacked or packed with heavy and dense objects made of lead, iron, gold, and even gems. If the individual chests broke out of the stern castle or other areas of ship storage, and they were heavy, we must consider the weight/density, the type of chest and calculate possible water displacement to determine how buoyant the object would be to estimate the distance it could have travelled from the associated sections of the ship.

This obviously does not apply well to ships that made it extremely close to shore before breaking up as the treasure would have been contained better, and would have been in shallower water, thus would not have travelled as far from the ship as lighter debris.
Once a chest of gold hits ocean bottom, how far could water forces push it along the bottom ?

So given there has been collaboration between archaeology and treasure hunters, and some treasure has been mapped and salvaged, has anyone given any consideration to the weight/density and mass of the items salvaged and where they were mapped in location to the ballast piles or ship hulls etc, for the purpose of calculating how far from those areas any other chest or heavy object could have travelled? We must consider cannon shape gives way to a more even water displacement than a chest of gold so cannon could float or travel for longer distances as well as the ship framework.

itmaiden

 

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[Salvor6]

I didn't know cannons could float.

 

[itmaiden]

In strong and deep water they would have a small amount of buoyancy for a time. While often I see cannon with the ships they sank with, I also find cannons that landed randomly apart from the ship at a considerable distance.

Water can move huge dense boulders can it not ?

itmaiden

I didn't know cannons could float.

 

[itmaiden]

I believe the 1715 Fleet Manifests etc were as "stated". Where did you get your Portuguese story ?

And why would they "anchor" ?

itmaiden

 

[Smithbrown]

Most cannon from these wrecks would be attached to heavy wooden gun carriages. Just check the plans of discovered wrecks and you find most cannon still lie in some relation to their original position. If you are find cannon away from wrecks, they are much more likely to be jettisoned by sailors to lighten the ship.
I have never found any gold in the cannons I am asked about, but I did once have a lantaka, an Asian swivel gun, stuffed with coffee beans found off the southern coast of England.
Happy New Year, when it comes.

Smithbrown

 

[Salvor6]

As the ship rocked in heavy seas the cannons would come loose and go right thru the side of the hull. Hence the term "loose cannon." Once it hit the water it went straight down. Even if it were filled with air, there is not enough air to float a 4,000 pound cannon!

 

[billinstuart]

1) The ships probably had a huge amount of water in the bilge from rain/leaks
2) Not all wood floats. The wood on those ships was generally so dense or saturated it sank. Look at all the timbers on the ocean floor,
3) I'm not convinced all the ships had ballast. With all the cargo on board, ballast was generally unnecessary.
4) There's more to the issue than mass. Shape has a big effect on the movement of the item due to the waves and current. Lead sinkers will often wash to shore, but flat gold coins don't move much, even though the density is very similar.

 

[OldGold74]

Once the boat starts breaking up there is sufficient buoyancy to move the broken hull pieces a long way, I know a lot about wooden boats saturated or not, Fisheye may agree or other salvours of modern time, if you remove the engine from a wooden boat the bastard may not want to sink or at least be moveable underwater with a small amount of energy, in a hurricane once the ship is smashed to pieces and decking and ribbing starts to fail the vessel could move a long way in large pieces, sterncastle could move miles, a cannon or two trapped on this would go with it, as would part of the treasure, if there are items like tobacco in sacks or flours etc, they would contribute later to further movement when the hull settled and they started to swell, then another hurricane and the vessel is undermined and moves again.... and on and on and on. I say it is down to mowing the lawn and being determined most of the fleet that sank has not been found yet. Goho will know, its patience and time on the water, good luck

 

[signumops]

If an entire deck full of guns separated from the hull, it would probably carry the masts, or mast stubs with it along with a portion of the deadwood and fractured ribs... a great deal of flotation. Some of the guns, actually, most of the guns were sitting on carriages unsecured, but the carriages were either roped or chained to the deadwood, and, until the carriage overturned, the iron would travel with the flotation.

If a vessel swamped slowly and drifted toward the shallows, its ballast might settle it to a depth of, say 30 feet or more, substantially putting the main deck of a larger galleon awash... a position where the ballast heavy hull must give way to the pull of the lighter top structure, causing a separation. The rafting top deck(s) carrying most of the guns would drift shoreward (I'm speaking of the portion of the storm as it presents it's front, or oncoming wall). The rafting structure would travel further in, leaving the ballasted hull structure to rest where its timbers would be destroyed to a point where they no longer offered resistance to the tides. In the model we discussed in the earlier thread, the first onslaught would be the one to settle out the hull for the most part, IF it stayed intact, for the most part. Meanwhile the rafted gun decks might make it as far as the beach where the guns would be dropped in the surf. If the vessel was one located on the south side of the westward trending eye, the lightened decks may have drifted a great way to the S.E. (who knows, maybe still bearing cannon). I'm thinking in particular here of the Sandy Point wreck which still eludes us.

A little further to the north, the Rio Mar wreck is another example of a situation where the swamped vessel came to rest before it could reach the shore. The topography at the wrecksite is very dramatic, precluding the dispersal of gun decks for any distance. In fact, I've never heard anything about survivors on that wreck one way or another, but that ship picked absolutely the worst point to beach for miles in both directions, north and south. It would be virtually impossible for a human to make it over the reefs there in hurricane force waves unless they were approaching on a northwesterly angle. Oddly enough, there was a substantial scatter of material, including gold dust, to the N.W. of the main wreckage at Rio Mar, which throws a hitch in my theories. On the other hand, there's plenty of small ballast trailing shoreward, dead west of the gun pile, and there are timbers nearshore, dead west as well. So, some of the lower hull definitely went to the beach. Follow the ballast. That MO works.

Traditionally, in the heyday of the flota system, galleons carried 'chaser' guns fore and aft, with the more common culverins and demi-culverins along the sides. Chasers were longer barrel guns with smaller calibers. I can not recall ever seeing one in a 1715 wreck. Maybe they did not carry fore and aft guns by 1715, or, more likely, they were salvaged, as they were geneally bronze instead of iron. But, if you found chasers, you would have a much better idea of what part of the boat you had found.

So, can anybody tell me if the "Cannon Wreck" is actually a wreck, or is it a rafted gun deck?

 

[Goldminer]

Looking at the attached sketch of a "ship of war", you can see what Terry is referring to. If the sea level was lower 300 years ago, many of the guns would have been right on the beach. (if you save image to My Pictures, you can enlarge for great clarity)

 

[capt dom]

I've attached these photos before - in another thread but this conversation
is bringing up some interesting discussion, so take a look once more.....

The second picture although looking like an artist rendition actually accurately
depicts to within 6 inches the location of each artifact - as they were discovered.
They (cannons & anchors) were pole located from the beach and shot with twin
laser theodolites by a licensed land surveyor.

These artifacts which to me represent - a pitch poled upper gun deck - as being
discussed, were located in this defining pattern -(stream anchors on the bow)
(four cannons to starboard - and four to port, in a pile) at the western most portion
of the scatter pattern also attached.

 

[OldGold74]

In my opinion its down to "bulk" as the smaller stuff can get moved easily over years of other hurricanes I dont use these unless very consistent or bulk...as a trail. Some reef systems are often reversed with wave action only in hurricanes or storms and on normal days currents flow the opposite ways so when it settles the smaller stuff gets pushed out or ..in depending on how you view it, I know two very big reef systems that all the people looking never realised the hurricane pattern. I like the pitchpole theory makes sense as most things pitch in dumping shorebreak swells.

 

[armchairQB30]

ITMAIDEN,

Would it be possible to take the computer models from the two hurricanes that hit Brevard County in 2004 and...

Add in known shipwreck locations.

Add in the ship locations in the armada when the hurricane hit.

Review the S.O.P procedure for distances between ships.

Add in weather and current information.

Isnt it logical to assume that downrange of NASA is where the other ships are?

I think that all of this information will point to Cape Canveral as the location for the other four ships.

 

[mad4wrecks]

1)The Urca De Lima is somewhere off/to the south of the current St Lucie Inlet
2) The Nieves is near Tiger Shores...probably what Dave Jordan has.
3) Ubilla's personal ship that he bought from Escheverz in Havana is the wreck at Douglas Beach
4) Pepper Park at the old Ft. Pierce Inlet is the French prize, El Ciervo
5) Sandy Point is the Rosario, Escheverz almiranta
6) Rio Mar is the Carmen, Escheverz capitana
7) HRD's exploration site in Vero is La Holandesa (aka La Popa)
8 ) Corrigans is Ubilla's Capitana
9) Cabin Wreck is Ubilla's almiranta
10) The Conception is at Melbourne Beach-Rex Stocker's wreck
11) The San Miguel is up near Nassua Sound
Tom

 

[itmaiden]

The accuracy wouldn't be there, but it could be interesting to overlay other hurricane patterns on top of what is known to see if there are similarities. It could help in the hunt.

itmaiden

ITMAIDEN,

Would it be possible to take the computer models from the two hurricanes that hit Brevard County in 2004 and...

Add in known shipwreck locations.

Add in the ship locations in the armada when the hurricane hit.

Review the S.O.P procedure for distances between ships.

Add in weather and current information.

Isnt it logical to assume that downrange of NASA is where the other ships are?

I think that all of this information will point to Cape Canveral as the location for the other four ships.

 

[itmaiden]

Gold is heavier than iron. This is what I want everyone to think about. The gold in some of these sinkings cannot be far from the main ship. Even if the stern castle separated, in some instances it would just topple over and sink perhaps.

I have seen what I think to be what is left of an old stern castle in a couple of areas, 1715, one not 1715. I also have seen a stack of chests (not 1715) still sitting on top of each other on the bottom undisturbed. The fact that those chests can still be sitting where they are after all these years and storms amazed me. They must be heavy. They looked very settled.
Just for the interest of all the hungry treasure hunters here, the chests were sitting in 2 rows end to end in a N to S direction. On the south edge of the chests on the ocean bottom the partially uncovered sand, showed a dark bordered rectangular structure (iron ?) sitting N to S also...I had slight fantasies of the Golden Madonna with that one. Want the location ? Forget it.
Too many pirates on here that wouldn't share if I gave it to them.

Some areas of ocean do not seem to suffer as much disturbance as others.

Yes, iron will sink fast, but I do not underestimate the force of water in a Hurricane or a Flood.

itmaiden

As the ship rocked in heavy seas the cannons would come loose and go right thru the side of the hull. Hence the term "loose cannon." Once it hit the water it went straight down. Even if it were filled with air, there is not enough air to float a 4,000 pound cannon!

 

[godisnum1]

By the way, I'm betting there was a bit of a clandestine activity involving the 1715 fleet. Like, maybe the real Maria Galante, wasn't in the 1715 fleet and another ship sailed with the fleet using that name.

The real Maria Galante, given another name, was secretly loaded with a precious cargo of 33 chests containing Queen Isabella's Dowery, and along with another ship with Portuguese sailors, under guise of the Portuguese flag, quietly sailed out of the harbor a day ahead of the 1715 fleet. They made safe anchorage the eve before the impending storm. Mis fortune struck them also and the ships were sank at anchorage and quickly filled with sand. 6 chests were saved, 5 were buried, and 1 taken back to Havana, where it mysteriously disappeared. Spain sent a salvage vessel, but by the time it arrived it was too late. The ships were totally immersed under the sand.

It's my bet that Isabella's Dowery, will not be found aboard any of the 1715 ships wrecked along Florida's coast. I think I know exactly where it is.

Oh well, nobody's going to believe it any way. Dell

I believe you, Dell... my gut instinct tells me so.

Bran <><

 

[itmaiden]

I could use some help identifying 3 other wrecks I have located that apparently have not been found by anyone else. One appears to be a Spanish Hull. One I think is possibly post 1715 but not later than 1825, and the other ...possibly Spanish. But there were a number of losses through the centuries, so without further exploration, there are no clear answers. Salvor companies either have a schedule and agenda already or cannot afford to continue to explore other wrecks.

However, I fear 2 of these wrecks are going to be discovered through the whims of gov't before long as they are getting really aggressive in their competition against TH's. The other I don't think the gov't will go after at the moment. The gov't has a budget concern as does the salvors. The only difference is the gov't can "find stuff" through other activities which are disguises to fund the discovery through a different accounting area, and they can always "restrict" access to another area for "preservation" or "security" purposes or whatever.

Just wait and see. Florida is unscrupulous !
Florida has more information than TH's could hope to get their hands on.

itmaiden

I believe you, Dell... my gut instinct tells me so.

Bran <><

 

[itmaiden]

I agree with 1) based on something I found in that area. I have already provided the information to the rightful lease holders.

I agree in part with 6) that one of the Vero Beach wrecks was Escheverz's.

Regarding the Ubilla Flagship and Dutch wrecks I have already seen wreckage that belongs to one or both. Also there was a map clue, which received recent confirmation by something someone else has contributed in terms of information. (Not everything you see is as you see it - look twice)

This is going to be a busy season and I think it will be quite a successful one. Remember, let's all play nice, there is plenty of treasure for everyone !



itmaiden

1)The Urca De Lima is somewhere off/to the south of the current St Lucie Inlet
2) The Nieves is near Tiger Shores...probably what Dave Jordan has.
3) Ubilla's personal ship that he bought from Escheverz in Havana is the wreck at Douglas Beach
4) Pepper Park at the old Ft. Pierce Inlet is the French prize, El Ciervo
5) Sandy Point is the Rosario, Escheverz almiranta
6) Rio Mar is the Carmen, Escheverz capitana
7) HRD's exploration site in Vero is La Holandesa (aka La Popa)
8 ) Corrigans is Ubilla's Capitana
9) Cabin Wreck is Ubilla's almiranta
10) The Conception is at Melbourne Beach-Rex Stocker's wreck
11) The San Miguel is up near Nassua Sound
Tom

 

[billinstuart]

Tommy Gore alluded to the possibility of a wreck off of St. Lucie Inlet. That area has been dived to death by recreational divers. though. Same with Tiger Shores. From Jupiter Island Park north to the house of refuge, there is a pronounced hard and stable offshore reef system that is maybe 6' deep in places. The only "opening" is where the gubment blasted the reef for the inlet itself. It would be ironic if that blasted area was the location of a wreck.

I still don't fully accept that all those ships had ballast stones in them. They were too full of "cargo" to need ballast.