Hello

[mariner]

Lucky Eddie,

I understand what you are saying, but I will give you one example that explains why I made the suggestion I did.

In 1984 a fisherman on the Oregon Coast pulled up something that led him to believe he had stumbled on a shipwreck. He got a trusted friend to dive, and he came up with some artefacts that convinced the finder that it was the wreck of a Manila Galleon. He approached the State, who claim to own all ancient wrecks within 200 miles ofthe coast, but told them that he did not trust naval architects, whom he thought were all thieves, and insisted that only he and people he selected should investigate and recover the wreck. Of course, the State could not agree with him.

He and the State butted heads for some 20 years. He said he was determined not to tell anybody where the wreck was unless the State agreed to his conditions, and that he would take the secret to his grave if necessary .... which he did.

He ended up with nothing. The State ended up with nothing. We interested onlookers ended up with no knowledge of what was probably a very important wreck. Incidentally, he tried to tell his daughter about the wreck. She told him that she did not want the information, as she didn't want to have her life blighted by the knowledge, which she thought had blighted his.

I could give other examples.

You have a great opportunity to change things down under, and to be responsible for presenting the world with the great gift of knowledge. Or you can do nothing, and leave things the way they are. Seems a no-brainer to me.

Mariner

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Lucky Eddie, I hear what you are saying mate but " Getting stuff out of our country ain't easy for the average
guy " I have sent coins out of Australia and never had a problem. Plus I buy from all over the world, Spanish
cobs ( coins ) I have coins dating from the 16th century, quite a few.
I understand you can't get your hands on the items for a better picture, But you know us Aussies will call it as we see it, and
I will stick my neck out, The Spanish coin (the one on the left ) is not real, sorry mate.

For Mariner. www.environment.gov.au/heritage/shipwrecks/index.html
If you need help with your find, my brother is a lawyer and I have a good Archaeologist friend Greg Jeffery's who can also help.
I'm only a phone call away ( Brisbane ) They do have a provision to make a deal.
Cheers

 

[mariner]

Ossy,

Thanks for that link. It doesn't look as if Australia encourages the private recovery of shipwrecks, but there are still two courses of action for Lucky Eddie:

1. The International Laws of the Sea, including the convention on Salvage, apply to Australia, so I think that LE could make a salvage claim to recover what appears to be a "new" wreck. The Admiralty Court in Australia could award him salvage rights, though these might also be accompanied by the need to obtain certain permits and use appropriate archaeological techniques. Although these wrecks are owned by Australia and the Netherlands, they do not appear to be Sovereign Vessels, and are therefore subject to salvage claims. Might be expensive to complete a recovery, but probably not too expensive to obtain the initial legal rights. He could start by talking to your brother the lawyer and your friend the archaeologist, and might try to find some investors to back his claim.

2. If he doesn't want to undertake the work and the cost of trying to obtain the permits, he could still follow my original advice.

What he shouldn't do is to independently loot this wreck, and I realize that there is no suggestion that he intends to do so. nor should he do nothing, as that would be a great opportunity wasted.

Best wishes,

Mariner

 

[Lucky Eddie]

http://www.environment.gov.au/heritage/shipwrecks/news.html#zuytdorp

Zuytdorp coins seized

In January 2010, following a report that stolen objects from a shipwreck were hidden in a backyard, the Department of Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts with the assistance of West Australian (WA) Police, recovered more than 1,400 silver coins. These coins are believed to have sunk with the Zuytdorp in 1712, north of Geraldton, off the WA Coast.

The Zuytdorp is one of four Dutch East India ships known to be shipwrecked along the WA coast. There were no known survivors from the Zuytdorp, which had a rich cargo that included about 250,000 guilders. The seized coins were handed to the WA Museum to be added to their maritime research collection.

The department is now investigating the circumstances that saw the coins removed from the shipwreck site.

An "interesting" news report that says as much by what it doesn't say as it does!.

Theres a HUGE amount that I've not let on about the wrecks situations here n W.A.

The Zuytdorp wreck is one I have a LARGE amount of evidence about who and when they plundered the wreck.

I've mentioned the film/s I have, and the latest recovery where the low alpha lead was moved and dumped (I estimate $6M worth in today's figures).

I in fact have film copies of EVERY recovery mission to the Zuytdorp, bye the museum - but even earlier than that right back to the 1920's first expedition.

I have film footage of the "chief of police at the time" using dynamite on the rocks and cliff face to free coins washed up onto that area and left there by survivors as they scrambled from wreck to shore via the steep cliff.

I've footage of them making a landing strip to fly out their booty and land supplies bye air - at the time completely burying most everything up on top of the cliffs where the survivors camped for a long time awaiting rescue.

I've footage of them taking away a timber bow decoration/mermaid type carving off the ship.

All of this occurred before the legislation was enacted in the 1970's - the films cover periods from the 1920's to the 1970's

The "expeditions" were financed by the West Australian newspaper, so NO information made the press about the silver coins being recovered.

The ones in the news article above could well have been recovered legally, prior to the legislation's enactment, and even now, some 50 or 60 years later the WAMM is using its retrospective powers to seize anything they can that has value.

In the Films are footage of Army SAS troops climbing into caves on the cliff face and finding relics! (They also found a Zuyptdorf engraving and date 1722? inside one of the caves but were instructed to obliterate it with a sledge hammer, which they did.....on film)!".

So there is no dispute about the expurgation of dated dutch engravings on shore.

Some of these people within the film, looting and destroying the historic and high fiscal value relics - went on to become "directors of the board" who controlled the maritime museum once the legislation was enacted. Some made extensive careers writing books about the wreck and their discovery of it.

These group eventually turned on each other. There were even murders.

One of the films shows a brave young pilot, flying in supplies onto the rough bush air strip they made, with an old tractor they towed and drove to the site all the way from Perth, specifically for that purpose!.

The Pilot was one of the Mickelberg brothers (Brian) who was later killed in a highly suspicious light plane crash...

As we can see THEY (including he) was involved with the chief of police & editor of the daily paper in plundering the wreck, he'd fly in and dive alone on the wreck and fly out again at times.

Non of this was illegal at the time but - things developed...

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/190802_s3.htm

You can read above how the Mickelberg boys (3 of) were set up by corrupt cops for the Perth Mint Swindle crime.

Some very powerful and corrupt people were and in some cases still are, involved in all the looting and plundering of our known wrecks, and they still now use the retrospective part of the Legislation to steal any legally obtained relics, and yet non of them are on display in the WAMM, and many have turned up in private overseas collections.

They jailed Robinson - the guy who found the Vergulde Draeke wreck on the 60's - , stripped him of all his legally obtained relics and hounded him until he took his own life in prison..... all because he found a wreck before there was any legislation governing such things.

These same people blowing up the zuyptorf wreck and plundering the loot - were the ones jailing Robinson and stealing his Vergulde Draeke relics. I lived thru this period and as a result of what I saw transpiring - did the dutiful thing and reported my find to the WAMM - and they dismissed it totally out of hand thankfully, as a local coastal cutter wreck they were already familiar with and didn't bother to investigate it any further, with an on site inspection of the location which I gave.

30 odd years later here we are - with many dead bodies buried as a result of their involvement in the international scale thefts talking place with relics from the Batavia, Vergulde Draeke and Zuyptdorf wrecks.

I'm not about to give the location and details to this same corrupt cabal of people.

One only has to read the book "Mickelberge stitch"

http://www.amazon.com/Mickelberg-Stitch-Avon-Lovell/dp/B000OHECKI

To realise how corrupt and deadly our Police and Museum Board of directors could be in these matters - covering up the theft of relics was ALL part of the big game and the Local Newspaper editor was in on it, what chance of getting a fair report in the newspaper to defend oneself?

The reason I kept this secret so long is - quite simply I didn't want to end up dead like all the other wreck finders, so that our corrupt cabal of wreck plunderers - who control, The Courts, The Parliament (retrospective legislation to steal everyone's caches of legitimately obtained relics), The Police, The Newspaper & TV....... etc - could just publicly loot yet another Dutch East Indiaman for private gain.

Name's Cupid, not stupid as the saying goes. Say nowt, keep yer head down and ass up, and don't stick your head above the parapet, lest it get knocked off, with a big (and highly corrupt) stick!.

I've been in and around this stuff for years - well more than 30 years - lived out at the Houtman Abrolhos where the Batavia sunk.

I've lived and worked out there with the cray fishers who found the wreck - long before it was ever reported to the WAMM - and then the Museum plundered it! They are the ones who've told me about their missing artifacts all handed in as per the new retrospective legislation, yet not on the register of relics at the museum years later when they go to view them.

These are the same guys - who as kids - used to take their dads tender dinghy's and row over to West Wallaby Island and have sling shot wars. They are the ones who found the collapsed remnants of Webbe Hayse shelters "forts" on the island and rebuilt the walls out of the flat plate coral as "forts" to play slingshot wars against each other.

WAMM experts came along and when shown the forts, publicly declared them to be the 350 year old "originals".....

What are the now grown kids going to say? They know how stupid (and corrupt) some of the WAMM marine archaeologists can be from first hand experience.

Until there's been a royal commission into the WAMM, internal and external audits of the relics they hold and whats on display and what went to the Dutch and was then given back recently, how can the public or anyone with wreck location knowledge have ANY faith in those presently charged with protecting our maritime heritage.

They certainly do not share my confidence in them at all.

If they could just show us the collection of 7000 coins they harvested from the Zuytdorf wreck on the film I have of them doing just that in the late 70's AFTER the legislation was enacted, they might have some credibility!

Until they can show us publicly the 7000 recovered coins from that ONE dive expedition, recorded in their own literature report of the dives, they cannot be trusted.

Their entire probity is at issue - something they refuse to ever address, because of the public embarrassment it would inevitably cause.

I appreciate that there are acts of the sea etc, available as legal recourse, but the facts are the shipwrecks legislation says it over rides all other acts state federal and international, and is the ONLY pertinent act in Australia & specifically WA.

Maybe I'll write a book about it - to be released after my death - with the details and location, at least that way - someone else than me can deal with all the pressure etc involved in trying to get anything done properly with respect to maritime archaeology in this state.

Its sad that its such a corrupt business, that survives under a corrupted govt process where the biggest crooks have protection from prosecution, despite all the murders etc already committed, still exists today.

It's not like an investigative journalist will ever blow the case wide open - because the local daily paper owner is in on it and has been since the 1920's, along with the chief of police and SAS army guys, the Mickelberge boys and so on.

Getting involved with that murderous lot, is a sure fire recipe to turn up dead somewhere.

Lewandowski the corrupt cop, dead at his own hand after confession to the Mickelberg stitch.
Don Hancock his CIB boss, dead after his car blew up after a day at the races with his bookmaker friend! (No one ever mentioned one of the Mickelberge boys spent time in Vietnam - as a demolition expert!)
The death "officially" blamed on a local Bikie Gang!
Robinson who found the Vergulde Draeke - and was stripped of his entire fortune of relics - dead (at his own hand?) while in prison - the morning his acquittal of all charges was to be announced in court!.

There's a long list of "mysterious deaths" associated with the corrupt cabal In WA who run this state, and consider any shipwreck wealth entirely their own!

Best to stay well away from ALL of them... if one wishes to keep breathing!

Cheers

 

[mad4wrecks]

Amazing. Incredibly amazing. Write the book man! I'll put money down on an advanced copy right now.

Better yet, with all the films you have, I think a documentary ought to be made.

I don't know which is more incredible...this story or the email I received yesterday about the de Soto artifacts and his (alleged) true landing on the east coast of Florida!

Tom

 

[Skimmer]

Hi "cheers" Thank you, first of all, for an entertaining and engaging narrative...I don't personally know anything about salvage in your area. But, may I suggest, this ENTIRE thread is based on whether or not the coins are Spanish or Dutch Ihave both from the 1500's and 1600's...and I'm not exactly an expert on anything but...even for me its pretty easy to differentiate the coins.
But, your posts have been informative regarding salvage around WA, and thank you for that.

 

[mariner]

Eddie,

Sounds as if you have lived up to your name, so far.

I agree with Tom. What an amazing story. It is too fantastic to me made up, and provides every reason why these people should be brought to task. As Boris Pasterack said, "in every generation there is some fool who insists on standing up and telling the truth." It was meant as a complement to the so-called fool. Be that fool, but be careful how you go about it.

I repeat my suggestion that you ought to register the information with the Prime Minister, and make sure that he knows that the location of the information and material is known to somebody else (make sure it is) in case you have a real or unfortunate accident.


Tom:

I did quite a bit of research on de Soto a few years ago, and although I think the official de Soto route to the north is wrong, there can be no doubt that he landed on the west coast of Florida. Still, I am always interested in hearing about people who come up with strange ideas like this, because they sometimes contain genuine clues to an entirely different set of events. Can you pm me with the information, or forward it to me by e-mail?

Mariner

 

[Peerless67]

I know nothing about old coins or shipwrecks for that matter but I have a few questions.


(1) Quote Alexandre "Also, the coins look milled, so an 18th century date would be in order..."

Why 18th century ? were these wrecks not 17th century ?


(2) Quote M&BOssy "Alexandre, as you say they look milled , but have the wrong coat of arms with the Greek cross. That was used in the 17th century"

Where can I locate the Greek cross on the coin ?


(3) Quote M&BOssy "I would be very Interested in the Spanish coin." & "I will stick my neck out, The Spanish coin (the one on the left ) is not real, sorry mate."

Could you expand on why you do not believe the coin is real ? & What made you change your mind ?



Gary

 

[GOHO]

The pipes obviously look as if they have been under water but the coins are to clean... Did you clean them Lucky Eddie and if so how?

 

[Salvor6]

Peerless the coin on the left you can see the Spanish tressure cross. They didn't make milled coins in the 17th cent.

 

[Peerless67]

Peerless the coin on the left you can see the Spanish tressure cross. They didn't make milled coins in the 17th cent.

SAlvor6 I was hoping one of the posters would respond.

However are you certain ? I have found many examples, also not only the cross but the lions and castles seem to be in the correct place for 2 reale and 8 reale coins and they milled coins in the 17th century.
If I am correct in thinking that these coins came from a 17th century wreck 1656 ? Filipe IV ? then it is absolutely possible these coins came from Spain. He was also sovereign of the Spanish Netherlands.
The Real Ingenio de Segovia (Segovia Mint) minted such milled coins during the reign of Filipe IV as early as 1613 for sure and maybe earlier.
I have no idea where the ships set sail from but if it was Europe there is no reason whatsoever that they could not be genuine as seems to have been indicated by Ossy & Alex.

As I already said I know nothing about old coins or shipwrecks, well no more than I have bothered to look up. But my understanding is that Ossy is a collector of old spanish coins and Alex seems to have a knowledge of the dates coins were milled.
Anyhow I will post an example of such a coin that I found online that could easily have been carried on those ships at that time.


Gary

 

[Peerless67]

I don't believe they produced milled coins in the New World until 1732.

The Vergulde Draeck (Gilded Dragon) was a Dutch merchant ship of the seventeenth century. She sailed from Texel bound for Batavia (now Jakarta), but on 28 April 1656 was wrecked off Ledge Point, 107 km north of what is now Perth, Western Australia. 75 survivors (of 193 originally on board) made it to shore and dispatched a small boat to Batavia to call for help, but despite three search and rescue missions to locate them, the remaining survivors were never found. The wreck was discovered in 1963.

The wreck is believed to contain silver coins worth 185,000 guilders

Texel is a municipality and an island in the Netherlands, in the province of North Holland.



Holland is in Europe



Gary

 

[Peerless67]

All from wiki

Batavia

On 28 October 1628, the newly built Batavia, commissioned by the Dutch East India Company, sailed from Texel for the Dutch East Indies, to obtain spices. It sailed under commandeur and opperkoopman (upper- or senior merchant) Francisco Pelsaert, with Ariaen Jacobsz serving as skipper.

Zeewijk

The Zeewijk was built in 1725 with a tonnage of 140 lasten (275.8 t) and dimensions 145 feet long (41.0 m) by 36 feet wide (10.2 m). It carried 36 iron and bronze guns, and 6 swivel guns. A new ship of the Zeeland Chamber of the VOC, her maiden voyage was from Vlissingen (Netherlands) to Batavia (now Jakarta, Indonesia) departing in November . Upon departure 208 seamen and soldiers were aboard, as well as a cargo of general building supplies and 315 836 guilders in 10 chests. Jan Steyns from Middelburg was the skipper, in his first command, replacing Jan Bogaard who was too sick to sail.

Zuytdorp

The VOC Zuytdorp also Zuiddorp (meaning 'South town') was a trading ship of the Dutch East India Company in the 1700s. On 1 August 1711 it was dispatched from the Netherlands to the trading port of Batavia (now Jakarta, Indonesia) bearing a load of freshly minted silver coins.



(These remain unfound)

Aagtekerke

The Aagtekerke was a ship owned by the Dutch East India Company which was lost without trace in 1726.

It was constructed in 1724 and was 280 tons and some 145 feet long. Commanded by Jan Witboon it had a crew of 200 men.

The ship was lost between Cape Town which it left on 3 January 1726, and Batavia. There is some evidence from the crew of the wrecked ship Zeewyk that Aagtekerke may have been wrecked on the Abrolhos Islands because they found some remains of a Dutch vessel that had been wrecked before them.


Fortuyn

The Fortuyn (also spelled Fortuin) was a ship owned by the Chamber of Amsterdam of the Dutch East India Company (VOC) which was lost on its maiden voyage in 1724. It set sail for Batavia from Texel in the Netherlands on 27 September 1723. The ship reached the Cape of Good Hope on 2 January 1724, and continued on its voyage on 18 January. The Fortuyn was never seen again and its fate is a matter of speculation.

It was approximately 800 tons with a carrying capacity of 280 tons and 145 feet long. On its maiden voyage it was commanded by Pieter Westrik and had a crew of 225 men.


Ridderschap van Holland

Ridderschap van Holland ("Knighthood of Holland") was a large retourschip ('return ship'), the largest class of merchantmen built by the Dutch East India Company (VOC) to trade with the East Indies. In 1694 the ship sailed for Batavia (now Jakarta, Indonesia) on her fifth voyage, but did not reach its destination and was never heard from again. She is now thought to have been shipwrecked off the west coast of Australia.
On 11 July 1693, the Ridderschap van Holland departed Wielingen on a voyage to Batavia. She arrived at the Cape of Good Hope on 9 January 1694, remaining there until 5 February. She sailed from the Cape with a crew of around 300, and two passengers. She never reached her destination, and was never heard from again. Contemporary rumours suggested that she had sprung her mast rounding the Cape, limped north and been captured by pirates based at Fort Dauphin, near the south-eastern corner of Madagascar. However, Abraham Samuel, the pirate supposedly responsible, did not arrive in the area until 1697.



Gary

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Gday Gary, The Greek cross design used from 1571-1652 http://atochatreasures.com/grading.htm
All hand made, my point was when Alexandre said they looked machine made, he was correct ! But when? I think he was saying it in a nice way.
I do agree the pipes look real, but the coins especially the Spanish coin does not.
Have a look at Picture 0234 and 0238 they are Atocha (1622) copies and Picture 0236 and 0237 they are real, note the finish on the copy, made of
pewter and the real one silver ( Sea salvage )
Ossy

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Gary I did say I was interested in the Spanish coin, mainly to get a better picture of both sides. To date, Lucky has not even said Gday mate
Ossy

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Sheesh.

Questions about coins I don't have in front of me.
Questions saying take more photo's - when I've explained that right now I cannot.
Statements that the coin/coins are fakes.
I don't see that we have anything to discuss in that case Ossy.
Theres a time difference - I don't live on here all night - just waiting for more of your cynicism.
Where people seem to have an agenda of their own - I usually just ignore them (as you've found).

I've added about as much info in this thread as I can, about ship wrecks and my knowledge of them in WA seeing as I grew up diving this coast during the period most of those found so far have been located.

I've been told by WAMM that the vessel I located was a coastal cutter carrying guano betwixt Abrolhos Islands and South Coast ports of Albany and Esperance, that sunk in a storm in 1912.

I've since found that vessel. It wasn't located where I found my wreck - about 2 or 3 miles south in fact.

I was told by WAMM that at the time I reported the wreck in 1974/5 - that it was less than 75 years since it had sunk (1912 + 75 = 1987) and thus not covered by the Historic Sghipwrecks Act & I could keep relics off it.

Now - if it is indeed a Dutch East Indiaman as I suspect then:-

1. Its way older than 75 years since it sunk.
2. Everything I thought was mine, isn't!

I'm not in any hurry to further make the issue public - as you've seen our WAMM think nothing of arriving with police and a warrant on ones doorstep, to take whatever they want and turn legal law abiding citizens into criminals after the fact, with their retrospective legislation.

End of discussion on the matter from me.

Cheers

 

[mariner]

To date, Lucky has not even said Gday mate
Ossy

Ossy,

He does, however, appear to have said "Good-bye".

Good luck Eddie. I don't really understand why you posted the thread if you did not want any advice or comments. I thought Ossy was trying to be extremely helpful: talk about looking a gift kangaroo in the mouth.

Mariner

 

[Salvor6]

Eddie thats an incredible story. I don't blame you for not notifying the WAMM. They would probably kill you. Looting the wreck is your only choice. If you gave everything to the museum it would disappear anyway (and you too).

 

[Skimmer]

Cheers, Eddie
NO! Please don't let an individual who maybe didn't use language the way you liked end this thread. He's OK, you're OK...lets hear the full story.

 

[Peerless67]

Cheers, Eddie
NO! Please don't let an individual who maybe didn't use language the way you liked end this thread. He's OK, you're OK...lets hear the full story.

Skimmer, I hope Eddie continues also, although reading the aussie laws makes me think he should be quiet about the find.

On the flip side, he posted a pic and asked some advice. He did not however offer anything for sale or ask for anything other than advice. He also went into great detail about how things are in the land down under regarding shipwreck laws.

Take a look at the pictures of the "MILLED" coins I posted, do they not have exactly the same shield and cross design as the coin posted by Eddie ?
Instead of Ossy agreeing that they are indeed milled and are very early genuine coins, he posts pictures of coins both real and fake from the atocha to bolster his statements.

The simple fact is they (the spanish) did mill coins very early in the 17th century (look above at the 1613 example) and almost all of those Aussie wrecks were ships that left from Holland which had Philip IV as soveriegn at the time.

I am sure both Ossy and Alex did not mean anything bad by their statements, and it is the way on Tnet for some to have reservations about reported finds ( I am guilty of this also )
But this is not a guy posting he found some fabled lost mine on google. This guy has posted pictures (although I agree badly focused ones) and has also been very thourough in his explanations.

Infact he did not even ask if the coins were genuine, but he was told the spanish one is fake. So how I see it is that he should not be proving the coin is genuine whereas the person who claims it is fake should be proving it is.

Alex and Ossy are both wrong on these 2 counts, they did mill coins very early in the 17th century, and they did use the design you see on Eddies coin at the time also.
The atocha coins are a bad example as they were not coins that came from Europe (with the exception of one that I could find)

Also I would not put to much weight on the fact these coins were found in water and so should look like the coins from the atocha. Take a look at a map of the area where they were found from the 17th century and you will note there is every possibility these coins spent much of their life out of water before being claimed by the sea.


Eddie, fair dinkum mate, I do hope you continue to post on this thread. I noted you claimed the coins were water finds and the pipes have reminants of coraline algae, did you clean the coins ?
I really do not know if you have found a lost wreck or not, but the story and the possibility you have is fascinating.
Thanks for posting.


Gary