Any Early Dutch Script Experts here?

[Lucky Eddie]

Any Early Dutch Script Experts here?

Survivors of Dutch East Indiamen Wreck in West Oz, Rock Engravings.

Trying to date / solve a puzzle with these rock inscriptions.

This is a fascinating (to me) tale - that is currently being researched by different experts in different fields with very different outcomes.

The engravings.

Known facts;

Vergulde Draeke (Draak) (Golden Drake, erroneously reported in news papers of the time as 'Gilt Dragon).

Dutch East Indiaman VOC vessel Lost on the coast of Australia in April of 1656.

Engravings first discovered & reported in Newspaper in 1956, 300 years later.

Wreck site discovered by skindiver Robinson in 1963 about 60 miles up the coast from the rock engravings.

Skipper of the vessel one Pieter Jantzoon.

Survivors ~175 of which understeersman Leeman & 6 sailors sent to Batavia in one of the 2 ships longboats to elicit a rescue & made it.

Leeman came back almost 12 months later on the 2nd rescue ship sent to look for Jantzoon and the survivors. Leeman was again abandoned here, by the rescue ship due to a storm brewing up overnight while he was ashore searching for Jantzoon and crew, and again he sailed back to Batavia in the ships long boat for the second time, with his crew of sailors - only about 2 or 3 of the 6 or 7 made it alive.

The remaining 168 passengers and crew including Jantzoon were never seen again.

The rock engravings are subject of a dispute as to both their authenticity and age.

The two protagonists:-

Dr Wendy Van Duivenoorde.
http://www.archaeology.arts.uwa.edu.au/about/archaeologists/wendy_van_duivenoorde (Impressive take a quick look).
Maritime Archaeologist
WA Maritime Museum
Dutch citizen working for WAMM
Area of specialty? Wreck Timbers (Dendochronology species etc)
No apparent expertise in dating rock engravings.


Dr Robert Bednarik
http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/auraweb/web/index.html (Fascinating - take a quick look)!
World Renowned Expert in Petroglyphs dating methodology.
Sydney Australia
Area of specialty, dating rock engravings.
Amazing amount of experience in dating Rock engravings around the world.

Reason for the research?

The location of the engravings is part of a planned marina development.
If not authenticated (or otherwise disproved as a fake) they could be bulldozed and asphalted over as pat of the proposed car park - lost to history forever.

Van Duivenoordes opinion, (so far)

Thank you for your message. At this moment, I am writing up a report on the inscription with recommendations for its preservation. The report should be down-loadable from our website in the coming months and will be forwarded to the City of Joondalup. I agree with you that the inscription plays an important role in the folklore and story around the search for the shipwrecks.

I have visited the site with my colleagues and have since been working with geologists and Dutch experts in 17th-century script, in particular experts in script on stone carvings. Based on its geological examination and study of the script itself, it is unlikely to have been carved by shipwreck survivors from Vergulde Draak. The script is not consistent with 17th-century Dutch letter types and the wording is unique to Western Australia. Elsewhere, such carvings are different in nature. The sandstone in which the inscription was made is so soft that it weathers and alters easily. The latter is another reason for it to be protected from the elements, especially since its deterioration in the last fifty years has been quite rapid.

A similar inscription marked 'Zuytdorp 1711' was once visible at the site on a rock-face adjacent the reef platform and it is known to have been carved post Phillip Playford's first visits in 1954/5. It is a modern phenomenon. You will get the full scoop once the department’s report is approved for release.

Thank you again

Best regards,

Wendy

And Dr Bednariks Opinion?

Dear Sir or Madam,



Having just received a copy of a brochure entitled Ocean Reef Marina: Concept Plan, I wish to provide some highly relevant information and prevent a planning error from occurring.



According to the map you provide, it seems to me that within the zone affected by this development is the site of Australia’s earliest known European inscription. Purporting to be an inscription by survivors of a Dutch shipwreck, this was found in the 1950s, reported in a Perth newspaper and then examined by two geology students and pronounced a fake. After being ignored for half a century, a group of researchers tried to relocate the inscribed rock, and after initially failing did find, almost buried in the sand, one piece of the rock, with part of the inscription. The rock slab had been smashed with a sledgehammer, apparently still in the 1950s. I conducted a microscopic examination of the remaining letters, using a method of estimating the antiquity of petroglyphs (rock art), and determined that the letters were indeed made several centuries ago, and could not possibly be a fake.



It is apparent that the remaining fragments of the rock slab, which was over two metres long, are still buried in the sand. In view of the vandalism that occurred probably in the 1950s, we decided that the best protection of the site and its contents is to keep silent. Your development, however, will re-shape the coast and thus destroy both the site and its contents. Fortunately there is a simple solution that will not only solve our problem, but also considerably enhance your development.



This site is of major historical significance to Australia. I have examined about a dozen very early European rock inscriptions (see e.g. enclosed article) and there is no doubt that this is the earliest in the country. I propose that the site be fully explored, the remaining pieces of the slab be recovered if possible, and be permanently exhibited on site, in a small museum / exhibit emphasising the importance of early Dutch contact. Not only would this solve our problem of protecting the relic(s), it would enhance the marina development and add a new dimension to it. For instance, you could name specific features of it after Dutch individuals of the time.



On that basis I request that the site be excavated under my supervision by Perth archaeologists, and that whatever is found be housed in an exhibition building next to the original site. Can I suggest that you request three of my collaborators who are Perth residents to meet the person responsible for planning this project, to arrange an inspection of the site, and to determine what course of action you wish to take. I emphasise that my position of Convener / CEO of the International Federation of Rock Art Organisations forbids me from financially benefiting from my work, i.e. I am not interested in gaining from this exercise financially. My purpose is purely to preserve this relic.

Yours sincerely,

Robert G. Bednarik

CEO, IFRAO

So, who's right?

Somewhere I have a copy of Dr Bednariks work (Results of microscopic examination of the letters - microns of edge wear compared to the known 50 year old crack edge wear - from when the slab was deliberately hit with a sledge hammer to erase the date and remove it from its original location up on a limestone overhang above the ocean tidal movement). It included recovery of microscopic samples of corroded steel from the bottom of the letters - to date the steel implement used to create the letters and assay its composition as a clue to aging.

IMHO...

Dr Bednariks methodology was extensive and quite conclusive (I watched film taken of his extensive examination of the remains of the rock engravings, the mans meticulous).

He states unequivocally that the engravings appear genuine and made around the date displayed.

Dr Van Duivenoord - has no specific experience in dating rock petroglyphs the way Dr Bednarik does.
Her expertise is clearly, in identifying and aging shipwreck timbers & their steel fasteners based on her web site.

She is relying on "geologists" for properties of the parent rock and erosion wear rates, as well as Dutch experts in old Dutch script, in order to pronounce the engravings as "modern fakes" - part of the rich folklore about Dutch wrecks in WA.

If pronounced as fakes - they can probably legally be bulldozed and asphalted over as a car park for the new marina, without breaking any maritime archaeology history laws.

If pronounced as genuine - they should be preserved as suggested by Bednarik.

Who's right and who's wrong - Both scientists are publishing scientific papers (hopefully subject to peer review) that suggest two different outcomes.

Here's what the head of the maritime Museum (Van Duivenoords Boss/employer has to say about Dr Bednariks qualifications and experience with regard to the engravings authentication)!

All...you are in receipt of the note below hence this cc to you in explanation.
It is sad that Mr Bednarik has refused to assist the museum in the inspection of the Vergulde Draeck rock inscription and that he has departed with such rancour and ill feeling towards this department and me as its representative. We regularly utilise external expertise in our work, indeed one could observe that it is standard practice. To that end it was our desire to conduct the inspection with him and to have Mr Bednarik as part of the subsequent deliberations and analyses. He is highly regarded by us and his reputation and capacities are undoubted.
While I appreciate the reasons underlying why he has linked this instance with the Burrup and while I share his concerns for it and have personally agitated against the damage caused to that irreplaceable, unique and essential Indigenous and global icon, the two come under different legislative and management regimes. One (Indigenous inscriptions) is managed outside this Museum’s structures, the other (inscriptions possible from historic ships and or explorers) within it.

I will ask Dr VanDuivenvoorde to make the necessary inquiries with the developers and the City of Wanneroo with a view to locating and examining the remains.

Thank you all for bearing with us.


Dr M.McCarthy
Curator of Maritime Archaeology
Acting Head.
Department of Maritime Archaeology
WA Museum
Fremantle
Western Australia

Here's WHY he wrote that!

Dear Dr McCarthy,

If there have been delays in this discussion they are attributable to avoidance of the key question: does your agency have the expertise to estimate the antiquity of rock substrate modifications? Had you admitted that it doesn't, I would not have hoped to find in your agency the ability of testing already available scientific data, and our discussion would have been shorter.

Permit me to list the facts: the Ocean Reef inscription was publicly reported over half a century ago, yet your agency has no knowledge of it. Similarly, it has no knowledge of most other early rock inscriptions in WA, be they fake or authentic, and shows no inclination of taking a sustained interest. Moreover, it appears to have no expertise in dealing with such phenomena in a scientific manner. Nevertheless, you claim that it has responsibility of such material. If it lacks both knowledge and expertise, why is it given this responsibility? Several rock inscriptions in WA have been deliberately destroyed, at least in some cases by 'official agencies'. Moreover, WA legislation for protecting immovable cultural heritage is pitiful: 99.7% of all applications made for the destruction of such monuments have been approved since 1972, and applications for protection have only been approved by the federal government, and strenuously opposed by the WA Labor government.

These are unpalatable facts, Dr McCarthy, and as the CEO of the International Federation of Rock Art Organisations, dealing with rock art protection worldwide, in every continent, and working directly with UNESCO, I can assure you that WA is historically the world's foremost state vandal of immovable cultural heritage. Believe me, this is not a lightly made or frivolous claim. Your government has sanctioned the destruction of 95,000 petroglyphs at Dampier alone; this is unheard of in the rest of the world, and dwarfs the Taliban's achievements. The Ocean Reef inscription was defaced and smashed in the 1950s.

I therefore find that your agency is unable to assist the existing project dealing with all known rock inscriptions. You lack the ability of authenticating such features, without which you cannot realistically decide what is and is not relevant to the maritime history of WA. In your own view, the authenticity of the inscription is not established, hence it is not a maritime relic - yet you are unable to authenticate it. You have nothing to offer our project.

My apologies for wasting your time.
Good bye.
Robert G. Bednarik

So it seems - the WA Govt and Museums have a terrible history in protecting rock engravings of any kind - Aboriginal petroglyphs included - obviously - even worse than the talibans demolition of such historically significant features in the Middle East, when considered on a world wide basis.

So.

Who's right?

How can historic relics like these engraving's be protected when certain agencies (with connection to govt) have a habit of systematically expunging such records for their own reasons (which reasons I've previously explained in detail & at length within the shipwrecks forum).

The problem is that we have experts who won't work with one another and who's work is antagonistic of each other.

Could it be that its all about who gets what Govt grants to do what research etc?

I don't know, I'm very inclined to side with Dr Bednarik - I in that I don't believe our Maritime Museum, has the expertise skill or qualifications within its staff structure - to manage land based maritime shipwreck survivors inscriptions.

In my opinion there's a great deal of question - whether the maritime shipwrecks preservation act, covers any maritime shipwreck survivors land based inscriptions - it ONLY specifically mentions relics on shipwrecks, not land based relics such as historic engravings.

Next - the International Agreement between the Dutch and Australia signed in the Hague in 1972 also doesn't specifically cover any such relics except as "other relics of interest" within its wording / definitions to afford protection.

It appears the whole area of maritime shipwrecks survivors inscriptions - is a pretty grey area legally speaking from a legislative viewpoint.

Now

In fairness to Dr VanDuivenoorde,

Do we have any ancient Dutch script experts on board Tnet - who can contribute to the script problems that Wendy and her hired / contracted in colleagues have supposedly identified?

It occurs to me that!

Generally speaking,

The survivors (~168 of) could have been crew and passengers drawn from all manner of both Dutch and European heritage, and any of them MIGHT have made the engravings - perhaps more than one worked on it. They might ALL have their own dialects and spellings of ducth words , names & numerals used.

Something I noted during my inspection of whats left of the engravings today - and that I don;t know if the WAMM Dr Wendy has yet spotted is P rock.

A rock platform next to the broken plate rock engraving, has one letter carved on it! Its a "P" although the outside part of the P has eroded some and today at first casual glance appears as a "F", but close microscopic examnation shows it originally as a definite "P".

Skipper of the ship was Pieter Jantz(oon).
I've assumed this indicated the skipper either supervised or carved, the inscription after first testing his implement (bayonet off a rifle?) for efficacy in carving the limestone rock .
How many of the crew and passengers were literate (could read or write) & thus might have participated in the engraving - I do not know!.

Any Early Dutch script experts around, who want to throw in their 2 bobs worth?

For example, do any written records/reports to the VOC from Skipper Pieter Jantz(oon) containing examples of his handwriting and spelling norms used for his vessel, survive to this day? Do any of these help account for the supposed spelling and script discrepancies that the WAMM and Dr Wendy claim?

Anyone have any other suggestions / criticisms / critique to add, that could help prove or disprove the age and authenticity of the inscriptions?

I'm all ears!

Cheers

 

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[Lucky Eddie]

Something else that just occurs to me.

Before declaring the engravings to be fake - would it not be wise to first carry out, the suggested archaeological dig of the site, - to determine if any contemporary relics from the crew exist at the site - stuff like buttons, coins, weapons, hand tools etc that they may have carried with them from the wreck site to the engravings site!

Would it not be embarrassing for example - to declare the engravings a fake and then some metal detectorist searches the area and finds Pieter Jantz(oon)s silver tobacco case with his name & birthday date say engraved in it - a gift from the head of the VOC for example!

I mean - I really would hate to see Dr Wendy Van Duivenoord - come out with professional "egg on her face" as a respected maritime archaeologist - publishing something, later proven to be entirely false so easily?.

The findings by say metal detector of any contemporaneous dutch relics from the period at the engravings site - would blow her dutch script and geology theories completely out of the window.

It would be a shame if such a simple oversight, made her look internationally careless.

I think Minelabs 4500 detectors aren't that dear to hire in Perth from the gold prospectors place - might have to go get one for a few days and see what I can unearth at the engravings site if anything - could be a good idea!.

Would be a hoot if I found the 3 missing chests of Dutch guilders that jantzoon saved from the wreck in one of the longboats - maybe that's why the inscriptions there - to mark where the rescuers were to dig to find his coins that he toopk as insurance that the Dutch would come looking for him and which he told Leeman about!

Why 60 nmiles south of the wreck site?

Easy - The VOC skippers were told in their sailing orders, to sail east from cape of good hope and sight the great south land (later to be the capital city of Perth) at ~32 south lat - and thence to turn north and run up the coast & to Batavia, Which is why Batavia ran into the Houtman Abrolhos Islands 54 N/miles off the central west coast 4 June 1629. Some 27 years before Jantzoon wrecked Vergulde Draeke off Ledge Point in April 1656.

Jantzoon would have known that - his best chance of rescue was to be sighted at lat 32 south where, the ships of the VOC were directed to sail until they sighted the great south land, before turning north. This was his "best position" for being rescued by a ship coming close enough to shore, to hopefully sight his signal / distress fires and investigate - this would be the lattitide that he expected any rescue ship to approach for the commencement of a search (and indeed this is where leeman on the second ship first sighted the grout south land Lat 32 South.

Perth is lat 31 57' south

Cheers

 

[Lucky Eddie]

B u m p

Cat got everyone's tongues?

Cheers

 

[MASSEY]

Hi not a dutch expert of any kind but have been looking into these dutch shipwrecks of wa for about 2 years, I also have a metal detector and live an hour and a half away in Bunbury, If i can help you at all please let me know. Also as a side note, there was meny other dutch people shipwrecked in the same area if most or all of the survivors of the draeck did infact go to this area it makes more sence that they where never located and all or at least some of the survivors of all the combined dutch shipwrecks where never found.

 

[Bobadilla]

Hi,

If you are looking for Dutch expert in early script, ask for help my friend Gaetan Algoet, he lives in Belgium, he is marine archaeologist and very reliable man. He is also member of this Forum.
Good luck!

Bobadilla (Lobo)

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Massey - shoot me an email please mate - you might be able to help with something indeed. [email protected]

Lobo - I have emailed you for contact details please.

Many thanks to both of you.

Cheers

 

[GDRG]

Hi all,

For those that are not aware, the Gilt Dragon Research Group (GDRG) recently discovered a copy of a letter written by the Gilt Dragon survivors.

We do not believe the letter has ever been studied by amateur historians or professionals.

For more information refer to the GDRG Facebook page at:
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.698138343629042.1073741854.125823890860493&type=1

 

[grossmusic]

If anyone ever writes a book (based on the facts, but fictionalized is OK) about all this, I'll want to know. I love unsolved historical mysteries that have (or could have) lasting effects to connect to today. Did these people go inland? Meet up with Aboriginals? Get killed or blend in? Like the Frenchmen who blended with a tribe here in Florida 100 years earlier?

Fascinating stuff for a book if anyone's up for the challenge.

 

[duyfken]

I have written a book titled, The Lost White Tribes of Australia.' It explains what happened to the survivors of the Gilt Dragon ([Vergulde Draeck] - 1656) and the Zuytdorp (1712), how the Gilt Dragon survivors eventually formed a settlement of about 300 people and how this settlement suddenly disappeared. Visit my website: australiadiscovered.com.au

At the moment I am trying very hard to save the Vergulde Draeck Rock Inscription. For something that is supposed to be a fake, why are there so many roadblocks in place for someone trying to recover the rock from destruction. However, I am slowly making progress. It may, however, be very expensive to retrieve.

 

[grossmusic]

I have written a book titled, The Lost White Tribes of Australia.' It explains what happened to the survivors of the Gilt Dragon ([Vergulde Draeck] - 1656) and the Zuytdorp (1712), how the Gilt Dragon survivors eventually formed a settlement of about 300 people and how this settlement suddenly disappeared. Visit my website: australiadiscovered.com.au

I bookmarked it!! Hope to pull the trigger & buy it as soon as I'm done with my current research project.

 

[Lucky Eddie]

Having read this book I can thoroughly recommend it.
It's an excellent scholarly research effort.
It's gripping reading also.
I read it thru from stop to start in one go of MANY hours - couldn't put it down.

 

[marticus]

Lucky eddie. Have to take what the accedemics say with a grain of salt. If they are practicing in their feild they have to be in the line of cook discovering aus or they get fired. Same goes with the suffolk park wreck of byron bay. Carbon dated to 1400-1500 ad. But because they found copper. They dated the wreck to late 1800s because copper wasnt patented till the mid 1800s. Best advice. Get some symbol books and try and solve it yourself. Its not too hard. If you need any help drop me a pm

 

[Smithbrown]

Message in a Boulder | Hakai Magazine

 

[Mackaydon]

The story of Drake in that area that I remember was that he dropped overboard many of his cannons to offset the weight of the spices he was going to pick up in the Spice Islands; spices were of much greater value than his cannons. Now, if someone could find and salvage those cannons.............
Don.....

 

[seekerGH]

Given the historic shipwreck laws in Oz, it does not appear to be worth the effort to locate, as the potential to do anything but locate a wreck is very, very low.

 

[marticus]

Historic laws only work on known shipwrecks. New wrecks come under a different act. Where wealth is involved the finder gets a %

 

[marticus]

To my understanding all wrecks in aus waters are protected. Known wrecks. Meaning their location know and documented. Can not have anything removed. Newly discovered wrecks must also have nothing taken and you are ment to aleart the gov of the finding within 24hrs. Any newly discovered wreck of worth. The finder can be attributed with a finders fee. But these could be minute compared to what may be on the ship. Now a loop hole that may come into play is if the ship and its cargo are foreign and pre cook. Then possibly contacting the orginal owner with the location may receive a higher cut. But also im not sure how the proper accedemics would handle a legit pre cook wreck. As it would go against the known teachings. Which could result in destruction and complete denial. However if you feel the same way i do. In how the gov royally screws each and everyone of us. I would not shy away from taking the treasure and disapearing. But thats up to the individual. But you can be sure once a finding like that becomes known. Its going to be a **** fight. And the finder will in most case be left a broken person. As to what happed the hugh edwards. The original finder of the batiliva