Need Help/Info on Admiralty Filing for New Wreck past 3 miles

[elusivesalvage]

Hello treasure community out there. I have seen and read many topics on this site and figured give it a shot on posting a topic to which I have Great interest in. I have been fortunate and privy enough to be let in on some information that pertains to a virgin wreck off the east coast of Florida out past 3 miles. There are certain artifacts that have come up, to cofirm there is a wreck there with much ship wreckage. I am under the impression that it is easier to obtain a lease from the Federal government than it is to get one from the State of Florida, is this true and where do I start out to get info and file for the lease. Once this is complete than I can start to raise funds for this salvage operation that will one day give us many more clues of how these old ships sailed the, what they carried and whose lives they changed. So if anyone has any information that might be helpful to me and my team, I would appreciate it Greatly, Thanks for your time from a fellow salver!!!

 

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[OldGold74]

I see some fancy rings on dem fingers....

 

[elusivesalvage]

Yes Sir those rings were found on the Color Beach, Nieves Wreck from the 1715 fleet, back in the 1990's. I found 8 Spanish rings that day in shallow water, thanks for the response, but I still need some guidance on the deep water site and the lease possibilities.

 

[OldGold74]

Wow ...nice rings again. Im sure you will get an answer by tomorrow, many pros here all know the law..good luck.

 

[Darren in NC]

What happened to the replies earlier this morning advising about attorneys and unnamed vessels?

 

[mad4wrecks]

Darren, elusivesalvage also made the same post under the 'Diving, Marine, & Underwater Salvage' forum, to which you replied.

 

[jeff k]

The Feds do not issue leases, and there's no law that requires you to file an Admiralty Arrest. The only reason for doing so would be to protect the site from other salvors. If it turns out to be a Spanish ship you'll need deep pockets for attorney's fees.

 

[Darren in NC]

Darren, elusivesalvage also made the same post under the 'Diving, Marine, & Underwater Salvage' forum, to which you replied.

Doh!

Thanks, Tom 8)

 

[Salvor6]

Elusivesalvage don't file an admiralty claim. Just salvage it yourself with your buddies. Philip Masters of Sea Hunt Inc. filed a claim to the La Galga and Spian immediately sued. After spending $1million of his own money, Masters had to turn over everything he found to Spain EVEN THOUGH THE WRECK HE FOUND WAS NEVER POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED! John Amrhein eventually found the La Galga over 50 miles away!

 

[mariner]

Elusivesalvage,

It is illegal to loot a wreck within US waters if you do not have the owner's permission to do so, or permission of a federal court.

Try selling the artifacts you take off such a wreck, and find out the hard (and expensive) way.

Of course you should hire a good maritime lawyer, but first of all you should try to identify the ship and understand what you are up against. If the ship was owned by a country, particularly Spain or the USA, you will have graet problems, and will probably not be able to recover it legally.

It strike me,too, that you should invest some time in understanding the laws, rules and regulations about the salvage of ships in US waters. I find it hard to believe that you are as niaive as your initial question suggests.

Good luck.

Mariner

 

[gemee]

I see some fancy rings on dem fingers....

Where the heck are you guys seeing rings? All I see in that picture is a hand, with no rings.

 

[Peerless67]

I see some fancy rings on dem fingers....

Where the heck are you guys seeing rings? All I see in that picture is a hand, with no rings.

The rings are by the nails

 

[elusivesalvage]

Thanks for the replies so far, I got some information this morning stating, that if a Spanish warship was hired out and or paid to haul a private merchant load containing anything besides government payroll that that ship would be fair game to salvage. Has anyone heard of this law before?? And Mariner as far as you saying I'm acting naive, I may have worked for salvage companies before on the 1715 fleet, but we only had to deal with the Fishers and the state and not anything to this scale of logistics and law, so I am not sure what you are trying to imply, but thanks anyway for your help!!

 

[bikerlawyer]

That is Odyssey's argument on the Mercedes, hasn't worked too well for them so far.

 

[ivan salis]

be prepared for a long legal fight --or approach the spanish govt "in advance" and work out a "deal" before going after the vessel * -- also contact the us govt govt as you will still be working us govt 12 mile limit territory most likey -- my advice is to get the "legal issues" out of the way --"up front"

of course until the deals are inked and everything agreed upon -- nothing is to be said of the location or age or type of vessel found.

 

[mariner]

elusivesalvage,

For any wreck beyond the 3 mile limit, the State has no jurisdiction, and any Spanish wreck in US waters, right up to the 24 nm limit, the wreck comes under the terms of the 1902 Treaty of Friendship between the US and Spain. This Treaty has been said by the two Governments, and confirmed by the US Court of Appeals in the SeaHunt case of 2,000 to mean that the wreck is immune from unwelcome salvage claims unless the wreck has explicitly been abandoned by its owner, or the legal successors of its owner. The 1902 Treaty over-rides the normal debate of whether or not a ship was on purely non-commercial duties. The Treaty defines what it means by a Spanish ship. The Treaty covers both Government-owned and private ships, though the courts have never specifically considered the case of a privately owned ship.

I have no doubt that in the case you describe, the Warship would be considered a Spanish ship, owned by the Kingdom of Spain, and therefore covered by the treaty, irrespective of the nationality of the company that had hired it. There might be some doubt, however, about who owns the cargo. That might belong to the private party or parties who owned it at the time of sinking. I think you would find it hard to get a court to separate the ship from the cargo, in terms of a salvage claim, because it would be hard to salvage a cargo without disturbing the remains of the ship that carried it.

If I were you, I would try to get as much information about who owned the cargo, and who had hired the Warship as I could before going any further. If you can't establish clear water between the cargo and the Spanish government, then I am sure it will be considered as belonging to the Spanish Government by default.

Armed with this information, I would trace the current owners, who might be the legal successor to an insurance company, or might be the current heir(s) of the original owners. This might not be as hard as you might initially think. Then, without disclosing the exact location of the wreck, I would go and talk to the Spanish Government, who will almost certainly refer you to their legal representative, the much maligned James Goold. By then, you will probably have hired a good maritime lawyer: you are going to need one. I would not believe all the negative press about Jim Goold, if I were you: you might be pleasantly surprised. However, if you try to recover this wreck without going through these steps, and without trying to reach an agreement with Spain, you are doomed to failure, I am afraid.

The reason why I called your initial post naive is that there has been a huge amount of debate about ownership of Spanish wrecks in US waters on this forum and elsewhere, and I found it hard to believe that anybody with a real involvement with such a wreck would not be aware of it.

Again, genuinely, good luck.

Mariner

 

[mariner]

That is Odyssey's argument on the Mercedes, hasn't worked too well for them so far.

There is a big difference between the Mercedes and a Spanish ship in US waters.

Mariner

 

[Salvor6]

Mariner, I'm curious, why didn't Spain claim the Atocha?

 

[mariner]

Salvor6

There are two main issues with the Atocha:

First, Mel Fisher had a letter from the Spanish Ambassador saying that in his opinion, Spain had abandoned the Atocha by default. These days, Spain does not allow its ambassadors to make such statements. I think that the letter is still available on the Fisher web-site.

Second, at that time Spain had not formulated a policy of claiming its shipwrecks in US waters, and Spain and the USA had not got together to re-define the meaning of the 1902 Treaty. At that time, it was generally accepted that wrecks that had simply been left to decay over time were legally "abandoned". When the SeaHunt case came up, the US Department of State decided that they wanted to stop the recovery of shipwrecks in US waters, so it intervened in the SeaHunt case. The Court ruled that they had no authority to do so, as neither of the ships involved belonged to the US. The Department of State then got Spain to intervene, and between them they put forward the case that the 1902 Treaty meant that Spanish shipwrecks in US waters were no legally "abandoned" except by specific act or statement. The Court ruled that a Treaty between two nations means whatever those two nations agree that it means. There is nothing in the 1902 Treaty itself that defines abandonment.

Today, permission could not be obtained to recover a ship like the Atocha, except by agreement with Spain, and I do not know if that agreement would be forthcoming. However, without that permission you are dead in the water, or at least outside the law.

Mariner

 

[Salvor6]

Mariner the Sea Hunt case was up in Virginia. I don't think Florida recognizes Spains treaty with the US. Florida claims all wrecks in State waters. Case in point: The UWF found Tristan de Luna's fleet wrecked off Emanuel point and excavated it last year. Spain didn't claim that either.